Hope you've enjoyed today's episode, and remember that next week again we'll get again a brand new one!
Wednesday, October 23, 2013
CRIMINAL MINDS Season 9 - 905. Route 66 - Comments Thread
Hope you've enjoyed today's episode, and remember that next week again we'll get again a brand new one!
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Its still on but right now Im so confused. Waiting for Rossi to fix it
ReplyDeleteVery emotional for me! Especially during the parts with Haley and Jack. I will definitely re-watch on my dvr.
ReplyDeleteOk so now we know how JJ's sister took her life. Perhaps some day we may even learn why she did it. It would be nice though if they actually gave her a name.
ReplyDeleteVery good episode! Little abrupt ending of Hotch's situation though. Really well written. I've had many dreams like Hotch's and it is honestly exhausting physically and emotionally. It will be interesting to see how he deals with it later. Hate that Jacks part was so small but it was nice. I loved Garcia being with Hotch and The Reaper and Haley's part was amazing and well done by the actors. If Hotch feels like Beth "is not enough" then I imagine and hope he will break from her soon. He needs to date more than just one person before deciding to marry her.
ReplyDeleteI loved it! It made me cry when he was having to leave Haley. Then made me cry again at the touching scene at the end with the unsub & his daughter...very well written & yay to Matthew on great direction.
ReplyDeleteOut of the box (sorry baseball fan): O.M.G.
ReplyDeleteI've been looking forward to this episode since we got to see the BTS pics and Virgil, Doug and the CM cast and crew did not disappoint me.
We all have out little complaints (sometimes big complaints) about eps; mine were that we didn't get a bit more of Jack at the end. But the hug was just so emotional, I'll roll with it. And I wish that Rossi had stayed with Hotch instead of joining the team. But Dave, as usual, was right. It was Hotch would have wanted. And having Rossi as the car driver put him exactly where he is in the Hotchner's lives; on the sidelines, yet ready to help.
Which gets me to delish parts that I loved. Garcia and Hotch at the end was just special, especially the Garcia hug!
The dream/hallucination scenes were absolute perfection. Virgil wrote an outstanding script and Doug A. as usual, just delivered with his superb directing.
I scratched my head for a bit at the Foyet role in this. But live ep chatting with a friend brought that into light. Foyet killed Haley and Hotch had no control. The scene with Foyet shooting her again and Haley telling Hotch he can't stop the bleeding now makes perfect sense.
And the Hotch/Haley scenes? They were subtle, which I like and brilliant. When Haley said good-bye, again, I bawled like a baby. And I hope, as a Beth fan, that Haley handing Hotch an engagement ring is a sign of things to come.
The case part of the ep was bit underwhelming for me until the end when it all came together. The daughter going back to convince her dad to stay around for her, even being in prison, was a direct tie-in to what Haley was telling Hotch. "Be there for your child."
I can't wait to watch it again!!
This one gets a 9.75 on the Rockie meter!
Matthew didn't direct this episode. His episode is the one called "The Gatekeeper"
ReplyDeletewow, just wow! Love all the Hotch scenes, the theater scene was just amazing! Thomas Gibson acting in the scene at the theater is just amazing, from puzzled, to sad, crying, suspicious, angry, desperate to accepting all this in one scene! THAT is acting!
ReplyDeleteMeredith Monroe was excellent once again as Hayley Hotchner. So was C. Thomas Howell as Foyet! Hayley was oh so great, was forgiving and accepting Hotch relationship with beth, after all what matter to her is that Aaron and her son are happy and they are with Beth. Yes as Hotch said Beth is not Hayley, she never will, she is the love of his life and mother to his son but nevertheless he and Jack are happy with Beth and to Hayley this is all that matter.
Wish I could talk about the case but for that to happen I will need to re-watch because frankly I didn't pay much attention since I was crying watching the scene with Hotch and Hayley!
well done Virgil Williams, your writing was just perfect and Thomas Gibson was just, yes that word again, amazing!
Just base on the scenes with Hotch I will give this episode a 9.99999 out of a 10 may go to a 10 if on re-watch I like the case!
I know that criticizing this episode is like entering water infested with dangerous sharks, who are ready to rip my opinions apart, but I am entitled to my opinion. I rate this episode 3 out of 10, and it is only this high for Hotch's emotional interaction with Jack and the case that was somewhat ok. The Beth fans will praise this episode unconditionally. I really tried for once to have an open mind despite my fears that Beth was going to be mentioned. I heard that there might be a mention of Beth so I had second thoughts. But, I thought it cannot really be that bad and that she would be mentioned maybe once (and I would just mute this part) not throughout the entire Hotch/Haley interaction.I thought Hotch seeing Haley again would be so much more meaningful, but it was not that great at all. In fact, it ranks in my bottom 5 of CM episodes and I really thought that it would be the best episode since 100 at least from the promos. I was extremely let down. In my opinion, it was a very boring interaction and not nearly as powerful as the acting on episode 100. For the most part, team interaction or comments worrying about Hotch's condition were kept to a minimum. It differed from the overall quality of past seasons of CM episodes. I would rather have seen this aspect. If the entire scheme of this episode was to convince anti- Beth fans to watch Beth episodes or to approve of the storyline, they failed in my opinion. In fact, I am even more opposed to the pushed Beth story line now. I will most likely not ever watch a CM episode again. It did not convince me about the Beth story nor did it inspire me to watch future CM episodes of season 9 or any future seasons. The promos were the only inspiring part, but the overall episode fell far far short. In fact, I wish that I would have watched other shows that I normally watch at 9:00 PM on Wednesdays. Watching the weather forecast would have been better. I feel like this episode was for the most part a waste of my valuable time. I must say I was very very disappointed. Rather this episode seemed like a pro- Beth ad that the writers devised to promote this story line even more. I guess I should have known after how the producers pushed this story in season 7. The only purpose basically was to rally support for Hotch and Beth using Haley to justify him moving on. What a simplistic message. The only so called valuable advice Haley gave was for Hotch to move on to Beth and keep her. What crap!! And, I thought there would be a much more meaningful message from Haley not just Beth crap. All we saw and heard about was Beth, Beth, and more Beth. What a slap in the face to anti- Beth fans! Yes, one writer on this site had said they need to mention Beth. Yes, I disagree, but I can see where they are coming from if this fan likes Beth. That might be ok if they had mentioned her once, but she was mentioned and shown constantly in the theater. It seemed like a cheesy soap opera with Haley and the Reaper not the subtle strong episodes of seasons past. We cannot even have one Hotch episode without Beth mentioned the whole time. Hotch seems like a different character now. And to clarify, I was never an Emily and Hotch shipper either so do not attempt to use this against me. I disagreed with the Beth/Hotch story for a whole array of other reasons (I am not debating this here) and hated this story for Hotch, who is (was) my favorite character. I know that I will not be very popular on this site since most of the participants in the blogs are avid unwavering Beth advocates and rip anyone's heart out who disagrees or at least become very offended if I criticize this story line . Let's just say I found this episode to be one of the most boring, cheesy, and uninspiring episodes of the entire 9 seasons of the show. And, I was looking forward to this episode for two weeks
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings on this one. It kept my attention and I actually found it interesting. I felt like I was watching two separate episodes and they did not mesh well together though. Good acting from the knownsub and his daughter. At first I was worried the girl was going to turn out to be a villain who was going to start helping him kill, but I was pleasantly surprised that she was just a normal kid who was unhappy and who was freaked out, but didn't know what to do so she went along with her father.
ReplyDeleteI felt that they started finding out about the father's background a little too slowly and then it ended up with finding out about it too quickly.
It looks like they are really pushing JJ this season. She's not one of my favorites so I'm not thrilled, but she wasn't obnoxious in this episode. I did like her phonecall to the guy although I thought she didn't really show the right emotions-- but maybe that was because I got distracted by my own family drama partway through the episode.
Reid was very light and I don't know if it was because Matthew was directing or if they are just having another light season for him. Blake didn't really get to do much either.
The Hotch B plot would have worked better as standalone or with a different sort of case I think. I wanted to see the team rally around him. When other characters were in the hospital the team was there holding hands and fretting. Now, I know it would have been boring if we just had the team sitting around waiting. But what if they had done things in such a way that the team members all talked to him while he was unconscious and certain things that they said triggered memories or thoughts in his dream.
I have to agree with the anon who said they are *really* pushing the Beth stuff. I was gagging a bit over it. It was just too much. I can understand Haley cooing over Jack, but the whole thing where she started talking about Beth, and then Foyet said "She's hot" and I was thinking "no, she's not" but of course he got that line "I would tear that up". /facepalm
Hotch's expressions when looking at Foyet were hilarious to me. Especially when he got hugged by him. If it weren't a dream, Haley's glib behavior would have really annoyed me.
I wish they'd done it where the team was already in the hospital pursuing someone and maybe someone hit Hotch in the abdomen and he tore something and then he had to be treated and meanwhile the team were there but something was going on in the hospital that kept them there trying to do the profile and such. Of course that might have been too encapsulated, but I wish the side story had meshed better. Hotch all of a sudden having something rupture didn't make much sense to me.
And Reid needs to stop trying to mimic the micromachines man. They need to have him slow his dialog down. Matthew's line delivery was better in the earlier seasons but now he's apparently self-conscious about his lines and thinks people find him annoying so its best for him to just spit his lines out and be done with it so the other people can move on. Its distracting and doesn't always fit the right emotions for the scene. I kinda felt like he was phoning it in a bit in this ep.
I did like it when Garcia hugged Hotch and kissed him on the cheek and then apologized. I wish he'd smiled at her.
The only criticism on Thomas' acting is that he doesn't seem to know how to play someone who is so badly wounded. I'm guessing maybe he's never had abdominal surgery and would not know how it feels and how weak you feel afterward. It can mess with the diaphragm a bit so your voice comes out as a whisper or just weak. I wish he'd looked a bit more out of it when he woke up. But the director really should have been the one to point those things out to him.
not the worst episode, but not the best. I found it entertaining. Liked the tie in with the one red balloon at the end.
I realise I was expecting too much...
ReplyDeleteAlthough it was really good to see Haley and the ripper again (definitely one of the best villain on this show), there was too much Beth for my taste and far too much unsub again... I got bored, didn't work for me at all, sorry...
Yes, you are entitled to your opinin. However I wonder what your motivation is by announcing that you know you’re entering ‘shark infested waters?’
ReplyDeleteWe will have to disagree on your ratings analysis. I agree whole heartedly that the last scenes with Jack and Hotch were fantastic. But Also the scene with Penelope. That hug was precious. And Hotch saying ‘thank you for staying. ‘Was beyond an ephany moment. Just great writing on Virgil’s part.
I will bring you back to Episode 100 where Haley’s main concern is for Aaron to show Jack that he wasn’t always so serious. Where she makes him promise to show Jack Love again because it’s the most important thing. Of course then fast forward to this episode and here is Haley HAPPY that Aaron’s found a woman who loves her son deeply. Who is making her son happy? I am extremely happy that Aaron has been shown that he and only he can be the master of his own happiness.
Again Thomas’ acting was superb. The interaction was very well done. Aaron has always come off as being stuck in that ‘high school love’ zone when it came to Haley and she played to that fact in this episode. She played to what he would understand. I personally think the episode was more Haley’s closure than Aaron’s. She died not knowing what happened to her son and not knowing how he would turn out. Now she’s able to ‘see’ he’s a happy and healthy young boy. Haley’s comment about Aaron always being a ‘great dad’ was touching. I think Haley’s continued mentions of Aaron not being responsible and being the only one who could change things for himself was poignant.
I’m sorry you feel that Criminal Minds isn’t your cup of tea because of how the direction of the characters has gone. But the fact is that no matter what any of us prefer we have to live with the fact that Beth is now part of cannon. I will say that it does bother me your vitriol over Beth? She’s a part time character at best. There is no point ranting about her she’s a part of the show. And while I would prefer to see Hotch with JJ ( My personal preference) I can accept the ‘why nots’ and accept Hotch as finding happiness with someone else. I don’t like seeing him so brooding and hope that this episode will help move him to realize that his ‘family’ loves and accepts him for who he is.
Cheesy maybe. But then again like I said, they are DEAD. Maybe dead people are cheesy. Hopefully I won’t know that for fact for quite a few years yet. But I can see why it was written that way. Like I said there’s no anger and hatred in death. At least that is what I was taught.
You seem to be expecting a ‘fight’ and a bashing. No one is doing that. A least I am not. I’m simply debating your points.
I have never found any of the bloggers to this site or any site ‘hateful’ to anyone who disagrees with their preferences. I’m not sure why you would assume that you wouldn’t be ‘popular’ or why you think the boards are running amok with Hotch/Beth fans? Personally I think all the different shippers get along rather well, and will continue to do so. The thing is that sadly no matter who a person ‘ships’ cannon is what cannon is, and no matter what someone wants it is what it is. I hope that you won’t let your personal preferences stop you from watching the show on the whole. The beauty of fandom is that so many differing opinons can be aired and discussed and debated all at the same time everyone agrees they do it because they like the show.
Personally while some ‘concepts’ this year have me scratching my head, I am still looking forward to the season long story unfolding. The one thing I love about this show is that while each episode is stand alone. There is a season long premise that runs like a current throughout each episode and I look forward to finding out the true meaning of the entirety by the end of May.
I appreciate that you were understanding even though our viewpoints differ regarding Beth. I appreciate that. Yes, we disagree, but that is totally ok. In the past, I have posted some anti-Beth analysis and I have been ripped apart for being a shipper (which I am not) and childlike for not wanting her on the show or not preferring to watch because of Hotch/Beth episodes. I know it may sound crazy that I do not like her, but honestly I really did not want Hotch to move on to anyone yet, especially her. I guess I am just really really picky since I adore Hotch and am a bit demanding concerning the storyline for one of my favorite characters. I do see how a lot of people would not be offended by Beth. I understand that. I know it is just a show, but I guess I was so invested in Hotch's character from seasons 1-6 that I became sad and disappointed over the Beth storyline for him. I did want to see Hotch happy, but I do not think the Beth storyline was introduced well at least in season 7. Again, thanks for at least writing a civil and decent response to my comments. I do agree with you that the Garcia/Hotch scene was great. I just would have liked to see more of his team members worrying about him.
ReplyDeleteIn my heart of hearts, I feel Virgil was sending a message to CM fans. And some of his Tweets are backing my thought up. Especially to the H/P shippers that pretty much tore him a new one.
ReplyDeleteBeth is now in Hotch's life; Haley confirmed that and approved that.
While I absolutely respect all opinions, if that isn't your cup of tea, I accept that you want to walk away.
However, as a diehard CM fan, I will support whatever they, being this wonderful cast and crew, give us with this wonderful show each week. I can't get caught up in things that will not happen.
Loved the episode. Thomas was great. Haley look so beautiful, was so sweet to Hotch. How strange to see The Reaper being so friendly with Haley and Hotch at the end.
ReplyDeleteI'm a Hotch/Emily shipper, I read all the fanfiction I can with them but love Beth too. Will do as long as she loves Aaron and Jack. Sure wish Emily was the one with Hotch but it was never meant to be, I am ok with it, fanfiction is there to make it happen :)
Great job Virgil, Thomas, Meredith, Tommy Howel and KV ( Garcia was SO cute when she hug Hotch!), love the episode, it is in my top 10 of best Criminal Minds episodes!
Shelly
Annonymous.... Unfortunately to keep with Cannon and Haley's promise they have to have Hotch move on. I would never want to see him pining for a woman that divorced him. No matter how much they loved each other at one point. It was always obvious that she was moving on. He needed to also. he needed her push to realize that he can't control nor take responsibility for everything. He needs to grow, not stagnate.
ReplyDeleteOh dear, oh dear! This could have and should have been a great episode. Sadly the only good bits in the Hotch storyline were his collapse at the start and the Garcia and Jack moments at the end. otherwise no "feels" at all. Like others have already commented, I felt that Beth was being shoved down our throats and the only feels I got were a touch of nausea when Haley told him Beth was a keeper. I never was a H/P shipper do don't pin that on me either and I did want to see Hotch happy. However I cannot stand the flat, forced and cheesy rainbows and unicorns nature of the Beth romance and I am so sad that we seem to be stuck with it now. I expected a powerful, emotional episode reflecting what had happened in 100 and I got such a slab of cheese and schmalz that I am sitting here awash with disappointment. The case itself was not bad and at least a little different and didn't end like they often do in a shoot out. But I won't watch this one again - it's the biggest disappointment to me in all the years I have watched this - and I have been in from the start.The only time I got even vaguely emotional was for the unsub and his daughter. Badly done.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed feelings about this EP.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to love it, Hotch is my favourite, but it just didn't overwhelm me. I thought the internal bleeding seemed off, surely they could have come up with a different way to ring back to his injuries rather than internal bleeding 4 years after the attack and very little reaction to the stabbing over the years, but I get it, it was dramatic, we saw Hotch in danger and the teams reaction so I accepted it.
I've also accepted Hotch is with Beth, I don't like them together it's boring, but I've accepted that the writers are intent on keeping them together, so I can skip that part of the episode the next time.
I also get that Hotch loved Haley and isn't over her either, but I wish he didn't put her on a pedestal so much. Yes his job put her in danger and she didn't want him to be in that job after marrying a lawyer, but if she wanted to join clown school when they were married, Hotch would have stood by her even if he had a clown phobia. Also it always aggregated me that in 100, Haley never bothered contacting Hotch himself or even JJ (surely she remembered the number after all tho slate night phone also) and just walked straight to Foyet. It was only a little thing and 100 was awesome but it always stuck in my head.
Liked the JJ parts and seeing Hotch with Jack, and it was still a good episode but it wasn't my favourite of the season.
Thomas Gibson is AMAZING! What a fantastic actor. I'm just blown away. At the beginning I just waited and waited for Hotch to collapse..felt sick to my stomach.
ReplyDeleteI was nervous. Scary moment. Have to say..NOT ENOUGH HOTCH. I really didn't care about that case they were working on, i needed to see Hotch. Its frustrating that when we did see him, it was a short scene. Not long enough. I didnt cry so much as i thought i would.
Scene that REALLY made me cry was daughter hugging is father and then she was taken away and she screamed. omg. that was so emotional.
Father's and daughter's last scene where they talked was really, really good. All those emotions..excellent. Actors were great.
I got to laugh even when watching this episode and all because of Foyet. I just couldn't help myself when he appear and sat next to Haley and what he said + hugging scene:D
Garcia next to Hotch's bed in hospital reminded me when Emily stayed next to him. It was pretty good episode.
Loved the car plate - 509 905.
I'm also one of those who's got very mixed feelings about this episode. First of all, the plot with the internal bleeding due to stabbing that happened like what?, 4 years ago? seemed so all out of the blue to me. I honestly didn't buy it. And I guess in the next episode we'll see Hotch again, healthy as ever. Don't get me wrong, it's good that they got to show some kind of closure to that storyline but I honesty think that it came 2 or 3 years too late. It would have fit better in the timeline of season 6 or maybe 7. I just didn't connect with it but hey, that's just me. The case was ok, it just didn't mesh with the other storyline too well but again, just my opinion..I liked the fact that there were some new bits of info about JJ's sister though.
ReplyDeleteIt was an ok episode but honestly the first one of this season that I wasn't too thrilled about..
Awesome episode! It was gut wrenching watching Hotch and Haley scenes; and the part when JJ was telling the unsub about her sister's suicide. It was funny in the Reaper scenes; and during the interactions between Morgan and Reid. I was crying and laughing throughout the episode. Very well written and wonderful acting from all cast.
ReplyDeleteWell done to all CM writers, crew and cast.
I was mildly bored during this episode. I wanted to like it, because I appreciate any episodes that focus on the former main characters of the show (Hotch, Reid and/or Morgan), but at one point at laughed because I caught myself reading a book as the equally bored Dr Reid on the screen. I don't care if Hotch dates this or that woman. It doesn't matter, because he will still abandon her because his job was always more important for him than Haley and Jack combined, but I don't enjoy being forced to accept yet a new character in the overcrowded cast, specially played by such a boring actress. I didn't like the Garcia's hug, but maybe it is because I haven't been able to stand that character for the last four seasons or so since I consider her invasive and too needy and self centred, but I guess most fans will disagree with me. I expected a lot more from this episode, and I still want to like it, but I just can't.
ReplyDeleteI liked Hayley's glibness and light air when she talked to Hotch; she conveyed to him to lighten up. Meredith Monroe did a great job but she needed a hairstyle intervention. Bellamy Young is brilliant on Scandal but much too saccharine for Hotch. Didn't think the team took Hotch's emergency surgery seriously enough. I can't forget that Hayley divorced Hotch and was nasty toward the end. She knew his work was not a career climbing ladder but a vocation and she needed to support him. Plus walking into The Reaper's trap was not bright on her part.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed this episode. I did have trouble focusing on the case, not because it was bad, but because I wanted to get back to the Hotch storyline. The tie in at the end of the case was good. TG was absolutely amazing once again. He is such a great actor and I love when he is given a chance to shine. The scenes were very touching and emotional and made me cry several times. It made perfect sense to me that Haley would talk about Jack AND Beth. It ties in to her last request of Hotch to be less serious and to show Jack what love is. I thought that was very well done. Poor Hotch broke my heart when he said "and I'm not good enough". Loved that they added Rossi's car with the license plate 509 and 905...cracked up when I saw that last night. A friend from twitter and I were tweeting about it last night and got a reply back from Joe Mantegna even, so that was pretty cool. The Reaper kinda cracked me up as well. Loved C. Thomas Howell in his role as Foyet. Garcia with Hotch at the end was very sweet and of course the final scene with Jack was just awesome. When he put his little head down on Hotch's shoulder and asks if he's okay just made my heart melt. My only complaint is that the end scene wasn't a bit longer. It would have been nice to hear Jessie say something.
ReplyDeleteI loved the episode. Sweet and poignant, it made me cry, then laugh, then cry again. Gibson really is a remarkable actor and I am glad when he gets an opportunity to show it. I really like Beth and will welcome Hotch proposing to her if that is what the writers decide on. I loved the setting for the dream sequence. Would have enjoyed seeing them dance a bit in all their finery. I really loved C. Thomas Howell and how they used him. All in all a wonderful episode. They have really eclipsed dreadful season 8 so far. I hope they keep up the good work. Oh, and to give a nod to reality, Hotch's hospital gown should have flashed his fine bottom when he got out of the car. ;)
ReplyDeleteA GREAT episode and AT LAST a good Hotch episode. Thomas Gibson was amazing and the episode was very well written. The dream sequences required a lot of thinking about as it was an effort to get into Hotch's psyche, his guilt etc. I thought it did that very well. I was very disappointed that ALL the team went off to do th case, and I felt they didn't show enough worry re Hotch which would have been more expected because of the 'family' theme of the show. To me this was a big disconnect. However Garcia portrayed concern very well and all TG's scenes were superb. I don't like the Hotch Beth thing but accept it. I think this episode was so hyped up - with 3 different promos - that it would have been hard to live up to expectations. So I REALLY loved the Hotch part of the episode and wish more team time had been spent on it but all in all I liked it.
ReplyDeleteGreat episode! I really loved the Hotch scenes and they did the Hotch intensity, guilt thing very well. Virgil did a great job as I thought the writing was superb. TG was amazing as always. I would have liked more of the Hotch story and more of the team being there for him, with him, but I suppose they didn't want to be accused of repeating the hospital scenes of Season 5 re Hptch and the Reaper. Yes Season 9 is shaping up to be a really good one - so much better than 7 and 8 so far for me. I like the intense Hotch and would welcome a few Hotchalanches and a bit of angst between him and Morgan or the new Chief - just to add bite to the interactions. Criminal minds is an amazing show and on current episodes hope we get a Season 10 with th team intact. Oh and I don't want Hotch to marry Beth on the show.
ReplyDeleteTo me it's not the fact that they talked about Beth, she's in his life she mKes him happy, whatever, it pleases the shippers and the writers seem to like writing their relationship even if some of us don't like it or like me thinks it could have been done differently and better.
ReplyDeleteMy issue is with the Hotch/Haley/Beth part of this episode that Hotch's episodes for seasons 7,8 and now 9, are about his relationship with Beth, even JJ's storylines have moved away from her relationship with Will.
I love Hotch, him and JJ and why it still watch the show, but I was really hoping for something else in this episode. I don't care about his relationship with Beth, it's exisits, I'm fine with that knowledge, but they had the chance to bring back Haley and Foyet and they did things this way. It's been posted already but they're right, it would have fit in 3 seasons ago, we should have had this episode when they were introducing Beth rather than now, Hotch's internal bleeding should have been addressed before now, yes internal bleeding could go on for a while, but it felt like just a cheap way to get him to hallucinate/dream especially as in the next episode he'll be fit again and we might not get any follow up for another season.
I did like the episode, I loved the case, I thought JJ was great and so was seeing some Morgan and Reid, but I think I had higher expectations for Hotch's episode and was just disappointed.
I have to say this was a very different CM for me and I did like it. I really like season 9 so far. I like the different approach from the writers. I think they are really trying to please the fans this season and they are doing a great job.
ReplyDeleteSeason 9 so far has been brilliant, my favourite season since season 5 definitely and I did love this episode, but it would have been better in certain places if they just altered it a tiny bit.
ReplyDeleteA better lead into Hotch's collapse, maybe see him being tackled by Jack into a bear hug and him wincing, have had Hotch been taken down in spar match or against an UNSUB in the opening minutes, something other than four year dormant internal bleeding.
The less Beth the better. Seeing hitch and Haley together was magic, it was SOS unreal yet heartwarming then Hotch told her basically he wasn't over her and she told him to move on. It was sweet but it made it seem like his relationship with Beth is just forced to make him happy even though he really isn't. Not only that but they could have easily made it about Hotch being an agent after the premiere being about his job, it could have shown that he's growing by not putting the job first, just something that wasn't necessarily about Beth. I don't hate her, I just don't like them together. I think the relationship could have been so interesting! but it isn't and another opportunity was overlooked in pushing that their relationship is here to stay. We get it, move on and give Hotch a more interesting story line
I'm loving what they're doing with JJ this season. I know people will complain about the amount of JJ but here it fit. We saw elements of her old self meshed well with her newer personality and it was what I though JJ becoming a. Profiler was going to be like.
Overall this episode was an 8, it was good but overhyped and I expected a lot more.
A great show last night, and a wonderful recovery from last week's torture-porn fiasco. The unsub was interesting and complex, and even a bit sympathetic. His relationship with his daughter was equally complex, and well-played by both actors. The profiling was prominent and well done.
ReplyDeleteThomas Gibson knocked it out of the park. Every facial expression, every spoken line, was right on the mark, and combined to create a heartbreaking performance. Now I will be disappointed if I only get to watch him stand and glower each week. Give this man some material--he knows what to do with it!
The call back to JJ's personal experience with suicide was timely and well done, appropriately underplayed by AJ Cook. This is the right way to introduce/reference character history.
The only miss was, again, the medicine. He should have had an obstruction or a PE if they wanted to relate it to Foyet. It would take about 30 seconds of research to learn that adhesions are caused by internal bleeding, they don't cause it. RIght up there with the curable scleroderma and the drug that paralyzes but lets you breathe. Just an unusually sloppy thing in an otherwise outstanding episode.
But, to end on a high note----well done, CM!
I love Beth, so she was not the reason why I didn`t like the episode. I was simply bored. The dream sequences were too long and they didn`t touch me emotionally. They also interrupted the flow of the case which was already not really interesting.
ReplyDeleteSince I'm not all that invested in Hotch, although I do like him. I found this episode rather boring. I actually found the previous two episode more interesting.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many of the previous posts. I found this episode sorely lacking. I loved the beginning because it promised something emotional and and an opportunity to face what happened with Foyet. Instead, it seemed like it was intended to prove to me that Beth was worth liking. The writers very clearly wanted to send a message there, but I have disliked Beth from the jump because the whole relationship feels too smiley-cheery-unicorns-and-rainbows, and not enough real. Beth hardly has enough definition for me to see her as a real character, and I find her almost nauseatingly sweet.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I did not enjoy having the team be so distant. When things happen to main characters in TV shows, we want to SEE them, and spend time with them and the people that know them best. It's something I've always found difficult with CM, because they never linger on the personal problems long enough. Case in point - Reid struggling with Narcotics abuse, Hotch recovering from Foyet, Reid recovering from Anthrax, heck, everything they've done with Reid (those headaches? anyone?). We want to spend time with the people we care about, the people we follow and support and want to be involved with. I found this very unimpressive. The main story was not something I could take seriously, because I just wanted to know what was happening to Hotch. So they shot themselves in the foot twice - they cheapened what could have been a good case by overshadowing it with Hotch's injury, and they downplayed Hotch's injury by placing it in the shadow of a case. Overall, I was disappointed, and I would really like to ask the writers to remember that we care more about the PEOPLE than the UNSUB.
Great posts here with some interesting points of view. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteI found myself reflecting back on the dream scene in "The Fisher King", in season 2. Elle Greenway was shot and we see her laying on the operating table, hovering between life and death. She's visited by her father who died when she was eight. The whole scene is about resolving some unfinished issues and reaffirming their love. Her father gives her some positive advice about moving on with her life and then fades out. The only team member to stay at the hospital was Gideon, everyone else is busy trying to solve their current case.
I have no problem with the other team members not being there. They maybe close, but they're still on the job and they're expected to "keep calm and carry on". If their presence would have made a difference at the hospital, I'm sure they would have stayed.
I have to agree with the other posters who found Hotch's collapse a bit unbelievable. If he had been doing something more physical than taking a nap before hand, I might be buying it. Of course the nap, might be showing the viewers his strength was failing and not all was right with him.
Getting back to the dream .... they say that every character in your dream is really just another part of your psyche. It could be said that this was Hotch's way of healing old wounds with his ex-wife and letting go of old anger toward Foyet. Perhaps, also coming to terms with guilt of finding happiness with another lady. I'm not a Beth fan, but I don't hate her either. I believe the writers make her as sweet and lollypops as possibly to contrast her to Haley, who at times was bitchy and self-centered.
The case the team was working on was fine ... it was more than fine in fact, it was believable. Yes, the father was spinning out of control, but you never doubted his love and concern for his daughter. Good acting on both their parts. Gibson as always, is a true professional and a first class actor.
I was glad the actual case wasn't about a crazy serial killer. I liked the daughter very much, and I was even somewhat sympathetic towards the dad. It wasn't a predictable non-custodial parent abduction.
ReplyDeleteI loved Hotch in the dream scenes but I, too, felt this was CM's attempt to cram Beth even further down our throats than they already had. I'm less comfortable with the chummy way Foyet and Haley were acting together than some of the rest of you. And I totally don't buy that Foyet thought Beth was "hot." His thing had been very young women. And however much Haley may want Hotch to move on, her saying Beth is cute just irritated me. This could have been so much more moving and more realistic closure for them both. My own personal feeling has been that from the moment Haley realized that she was with Foyet and not a US Marshall in their home and that she was probably going to be killed, I think in a blinding flash she saw how important Hotch's job really was. That he was out there on a daily basis protecting others from psycho killers like Foyet. She knew what it was to be a victim and how victims need the BAU to eliminate the serial killers one by one. I think she was ashamed at how she treated Hotch at the end of their marriage. She finally got it. This was a chance for her to validate what he does, even apologize for not fully understanding before why he needed to do what he does. She did need to tell him he was doing a good job with Jack. She did need to tell him it was okay for him to move on. But that was it. For them to show all the Beth clips and have both Hotch's attacker and the murderer of his wife and his former wife comment on Beth's looks and give their approval was silly and sickening. This was as annoying to me as the episode in season 6 when Morgan told Garcia, "Prentiss would want us to embrace Seaver." Yeah, sure...I object to this heavy handed manipulation by the writers. I also hate that they're doing this despite the fact that the actress has no time to spend on CM anymore, the actress and TG have zero chemistry together - they're scenes together are so forced. I'm tired of the folks all giddy over the fact that "Hotch smiled!" when that smile never even reaches his eyes. Admit it. He had much better chemistry in that scene with Haley last night than he has had in any scene with Beth. I would much rather the ending of his dream just be that it was okay for him to let go of the guilt he had about Haley's death and the pain of losing her and start to move on. I don't want them to identify a mate for him.
I also agree with those who said they would have preferred to see more of the team's reaction to Hotch's situation.
The dream sequence just showed me that TG and MM have a lot more chemistry than TG and BY.
ReplyDeleteI loved to dislike Haley, although it was understanding why she felt the way she did about her marriage, she often came across unreasonable, but there was no way of ignoring her chemistry with TG whether they were loved up or arguing.
It just makes his relationship with Beth even more disappointing.
I do think CM have awesome casting and I love how bad Foyet is.
JJ was great, Garcia wasn't as annoying as normal and the case was great.
I probably could have done with out the narrative of the dream sequence and just watched them interact in silence...
OK, I'm some where in the middle of this one. Things I liked, and disappointments as well. The pros were firstly, Thomas G.'s great acting, just keep giving this guy intense emotional stuff and he shines..he is just not appreciated enough as the artist that he is. Loved that it allowed airing of his intense feelings for Haley and all the things that he felt because of her death. Their relationship to me was always far more realistic, even with the struggles they had. Haley was a passionate woman, and show it. Hotch, kept his feelings close. But his tears were so heartbreaking. I also liked the unsub/daughter story, believeable and well acted.
ReplyDeleteWhat I would have seen as an improvement are; a much less casual approach by the team with respect to Hotch. While it was good that Garcia stayed and showed her support, there would have been a really nice ending to have the team, post solving their case, collectively show at the hospital and giving him their we are here for Buddy. I would also have like a much more personal exchange between Haley and Hotch, more about resolving their mutual issues and less about propelling him into advancing things with Beth. I did like Haley telling him what a great Dad he was. The let go message from Haley to Hotch was good, and I understood the essence of the weirdness of dreams with Foyets role providing a place for Hotch to come to terms with some of the stresses of his work and his need to let work become less of a priority.
I am finally learning to take the promos less seriously and trying to avoid them as much as possible to increase my own enjoyment of the show. I think I will place this in the very good category.
Thomas GIBSON is juste perfect .I like the way he passed the emotions of the character.. Nice to see Haley and Jack. I like the strength of the love between Jack and Hotch. This totally contradicts the apparent coldness of the character of Hotch. And it's very cute. But, for me, Beth is not the good one for Hotch. She's too sugary and i can"t see Hotch with somebody like this. He need soeone with more strong character, not this sweet doll. I liked GARCIA staying bedside Hotch and ROSSI asking for Hotch but... keeping the gang on the case. It's something Hotch could do too. The case was unattractive but i like tne interaction father/daughter.
ReplyDeleteWatched it a second time and didn’t remember much of the unsub storyline other than the young actress was very good. I would have been happy with the entire episode devoted to Hotch’s dream sequence and reflection and even better if they could have drawn in the entire team. I like AJ/JJ a lot but don’t want to see her character become a focus. The other actors are too good to relegate. Might be in the minority, but love Will, especially with JJ and their son. MM/Haley did a wonderful job letting TG/Hotch know that her death was inevitable, and that no one, including Hotch, could have changed the outcome, it was a fateful, meant-to-be-kind of thing. I could have done without the reference to Foyet having to take a leak and referring to Beth as hot. Fingers crossed that BY/Beth stays on Scandal. How I could love her so much on Scandal and get so irked by her on CM is beyond me. Just got it – she’s mega strong on Scandal and unset Jello on CM. She is not for Hotch! I didn’t mind the lack of much explanation for Hotch’s collapse – when he was in mid-air starting to hit the floor, I was on the verge of tears. He could have stubbed his toe and hit the floor, I’d have the same reaction. TG is everything the posts say – a fine actor, facial expressions and voice conveying such emotion. Back to Haley – she was so rotten to Hotch when he was in the hospital bed recovering from Foyet’s stabbing – she never left the doorway to go near him. Yet she conveyed such understanding of him in the dream sequence, the way he internalized his feelings, his somber approach to life (makes sense considering his line of work), and yet she divorced him. Insane woman. As far as CM in general goes, I’m in it for the actors, not the storylines. The recent one with the needle in the eye was too much. For me, the recipe for a great series is three things, the ensemble, the guest stars, with some recurring, and the storyline. The Good Wife has all three, for example. For me, CM has only the great ensemble but mainly, I’m a TG/Hotch fan. And, of course, the last scene with Jack resting on Hotch's shoulder - Kleenex.
ReplyDeleteGreat to read these comments as the episode certainly gathered us all in! I LOVE Hotch and think TG is fantastic at portraying this intense complex character. This was a very strong episode and I've already watched it three times - ESP th TG scenes. Dreams are funny things and are usually v strange juxtaposition of reality. I thought the writing was very strong and reminded me of the subtly of the earlier seasons. I think Season 9 is great so far and much better than 6 -8. I think they have recaptured the essence of the characters and am hoping for more and better as the season progresses. Hopefully we'll see more of Hotch as leader and also see some of the bit tensions that used b there between himself and Morgan. I don't think that took from th team but added to it - two alpha males are bound to knock off each other now and again, without diminishing their strong relationship, yes a great episode and I hope that those who hav left CM will return when they hear / see how good Season 9 has started
ReplyDeleteThis episode will stay in the DVR queue so I can re-watch TG. Love the alpha dog in the back yard scenes with Hotch and Morgan, particularly the New York terrorist one with the British actress who played Kate. When the two men were in each other's faces - love it.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at Hotch dream and how HE sees Hayley, she is SWEET and look perfect. not like the woman who like Hotch fan said 'she never left the doorway to go near him'. The Hayley that hotch imagine while he was close to dying, was an understanding/forgiving Hayley, the one he wish the living Hayley had been. So going by that is it so strange that Hotch would be attracted to Beth who is so different than what Hayley had become? Yes Beth is all nice and understanding but from what Hotch was dreaming, looks like this is who he wants.
ReplyDeleteon rewatch, will be doing that again tonight when Bravo Canada shows the episode, I have even more admiration for Virgil Williams writing. The whole dream sequence was amazing. Foyet, the one that is remembered by Hotch was a vile monster. We get that man when he shows up in the black hoodie, he is rude, makes pretty disscusting comments about Beth and again he shot Hayley. But at the end he is dress differently and act differently, more like a friend to Hotch and Hayley. I was puzzled by that then I figured this was Hotch kind of getting over the control that Foyet still had over him. By making Foyet a monster Hotch, something that Hotch could not control, he could never move on. But by seeing Foyet for what he was, a man then Hotch can take back the control Foyet had over him. Remember Foyet was all about power and control and as long as Hotch sees him as such then Foyet still have an impact on Hotch life.
damn so wish Virgil had spend the whole episode on Hotch, he is such an interesting and complex character played by a very talented actor.
I liked criminal minds when the premise of the show was to get into the minds of the criminals in order to solve crimes they commit. This set this show apart from other shows. Around season 6 and 7 the focus became more and more on the characters themselves. While I can appreciate the actors wanting to "flesh out their characters personalities",the show has often suffered.
ReplyDeleteLast night was a perfect example.
Yes the Haley/Hotch reunion was tearful at times.{ The "film" of mostly the Beth character was just plain annoying and really not worth mentioning}
And yes,once again the team takes a idiotic case,and gets to the bottom of it without hardly any effort at all.
THis has become a lazy show.
Don't misunderstand,even at its worst, the acting is extremely good. But I long for the cases that were fleshed out, profiling was actually done,little snipits of the characters lives were revealed,and at the end of the day the bad guy was caught and we were given probable reasons for their actions.
I'll stay with the show for a little while longer, but my patience is wearing thin.
And yes, I am avoiding the Hotch/Beth hookups also. Sickening. I want to see more interactions with Hotch and Jack. Like to see more on the interactions between the team.
The shows were much better when Erica Messer wasn't the only person in charge.
The thing is I understand why it was more about Beth. In the writers mind, Hotch moving on equals him happily settled down with a woman who understands his duty.
ReplyDeleteBut for me it's not the greatest romance ever and my favourite character deserves better story lines than Beth. I get that they love the actress. I like her in other things but Beth and Hotch together is just dull. He's happy, at last, but Beth....seriously?
I rewatched this episode and I liked the actual case a lot better than the first watch. I personally think the cases are getting a lot better and are starting to go back to the way things were. They're not perfect and often slip back into showy, gory cases rather than subtle, psychological cases but it seems to depend on the writer of the weeks mood. But so far season 9 has been strong case wise.
The Haley/Foyet/Hotch (Beth) part was still annoying. I get what they were trying to do and at first Hotch and Haley were so sweet and I felt heartbroken for Hotch, but then it went down a different Beth route and it became a little disappointing.
If we had this episode in season 7 when Hotch was considering dating again and this was his conscience telling hiim he had to deal with everything before he could truly move on it would have been great. But now, it feels a little placed, it's kind of regressive in the sense that it shows that Hotch hasn't moved on and his relationship with Beth isn't as stable as they're trying to make it, but they still want to force Hot h pressing forward and probably never going back to this or his injuries in the near future.
I do think it is telling that 9.03, which was a return to classic CM, received overwhelming acclamation whereas this episode with the Hotch/Haley/Beth scenes was a bit of a lurch back to the Days of Our Criminal Lives direction and has received mixed reactions. It may draw in the fans of romantic soap opera but those of us who are in it for the intelligent criminal stories and the profiling are so often disappointed lately. Give us more episodes like Final Shot please! Route 66 suffered from the complete dichotomy between the Hotch story and the case - in fact re-watching the episode showed the case was interesting and had a lot of potential. There didn't seem enough time to do justice to either side of things and I felt the team didn't show their concern realistically. The scene between Morgan and Reid with the book was nice but Reid in particular would have been far more devastated by what was happening to Hotch. I wish they wouldn't lose sight of the heart of the show. And for heavens sake, lose Beth and the sooner the better! I could have coped with the Hotch storyline better had it not been an obvious attempt to ram Beth down our throats!
ReplyDeleteReading comments here a few people seems to just hated the episode because they SAW pictures of Beth AND Haley like her because she is good to Jack and Hotch? Really? Some of you hate it for three lines in a script and two or three pictures of her? Ok.
ReplyDeleteI loved the episode and I don't care if Hotch loves Beth or anyone else, the dream was about HIM having difficulty moving on but reading some comments people would think the WHOLE hour was all about the writer 'cramming' down the audience throat Beth! I feel that for most of you, NO woman would be good enough for Hotch, he should stay single, and spend every free seconds he has with Jack. Oh and why a few people hate Beth? For the horrible crime of ' she is TOO nice' , 'Too sweet', 'Yes she makes Hotch happy BUT she is not RIGHT for HIM!' and those few people are fans of 'intelligent, well written cases'? Ok.
The poor men on CM, Morgan cannot have a girlfriend because 'he and Garcia belong together'. Reid could never, ever have anyone else but Maeve and for some Maeve was NOT good ENOUGH for him either, and now Hotch should dump Beth because 'omg she is SO sweet!'
About the case, for me the ending saved it, at first I thought the writer would serve us the already often used 'the unsub kills himself' but no the daughter convinced her dad to surrender. That was well done. the rest of it was predictable and uninteresting.
BTW Mary, some of us are in it for the CHARACTERS and yes even if we like Beth we are in it too for the intelligent criminal stories, just because some of us like Beth we are not dumb because we like Beth and her relationship with Hotch. We don't just watch CM for the soap opera aspect, whatever that is.
I hope that they will follow up on what Haley did by giving Hotch her ring and have him propose to Beth, because yes Hotch deserve to be happy and as simple as this sound she makes him happy,as Haley said before dying this is all that matter and nothing wrong with that!
Dawn
Dawn
ReplyDeleteI am in it for the characters also - it just raises my hackles when they do something dumb with them like giving Hotch the flattest sickly sweet romantic interest they could manage, Seeing Hotch with Haley in this episode just emphasized the chemistry they had as opposed to the total lack of chemistry with Beth. I am in it for the characters of the team and this episode failed dismally in showing the team;s concern for Hotch apart from Garcia who for once redeemed herself. As I said above, Reid for sure would have been devastated and although yes Hotch would have wanted them to carry on with the case, they still should have been shown as more concerned. This is where they crammed too much into 40 minutes because the case was promising and it was good that it didn't end in a shoot out but it suffered from running alongside the Hotch drama. So yes I am invested in the characters as well but the core of the show is the case and the profiling and I want to see how the characters interact among themselves. I find the family scenes are too often cheesy and I am sorry but Hotch definitely deserves better than Beth because he deserves to be happy with someone who is a better fit and who has at least a smidgeon of chemistry with him. Rant over,
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My part time jobs are disliking Haley and disliking Beth. Although Hotch knew that Haley was angered when he returned to the BAU, she never told Hotch she was leaving him, she just packed up and took Jack away, the worst possible pain she could inflict. Her nasty comment to at least kiss your son goodbye was so vile, implying that Hotch did not care about Jack. It was obvious she never talked to Hotch because he was taken by complete surprise when he was served with the divorce papers as he and the team were heading out. And once again, he’s lying in the hospital bed with multiple stab wounds, vowing to make this up to her for the rest of his life – and she doesn’t even go to his bedside! I should have had a husband like that! I’d have taken the stab wounds! I may make it my full time job to hate Haley and now after the devastation she caused Hotch when she was alive, she comes back to make things right. Very little redemption-wise, for me. Hotch may love Beth, he may even be in love with her, but it is not passionate, there is no emotional connection, there is no intellectual connection, he may need her more than he wants her. Beth needs to stay in Milan or, better yet, Shondaland. Forever. The solution is to find another love interest for Hotch. I’m all for sweet, I can’t do saccharine. And I’m not so sure I would want Hotch’s dead ex-wife’s ring. But it IS fun getting different perspectives. Maybe the writers are reading?
ReplyDeleteMary and rinni: I am so with you. You just wrote everything I think and feel about this new CM.
ReplyDeleteErica messer only cares about personal stories and some of the characters (Morgan, obviously, Garcia and JJ) and disregards everything we knew about Hotch and Reid. Hence, they don't act as we expect them to, because she just don't pay attention to them, and their centric episodes are disappointing.
I agree with the anonymous post, Mary, and rinni. I have been a CM fan since the first episode. Now, new episodes with Hotch/Beth are painful to watch. It is sad that I dread any Hotch- centered episode after season 6 because I used to hope for Hotch episodes like Omnivore. Every Hotch- centered episode includes Beth. I appreciated how Criminal Minds differed from cheesy romantic soap opera - type shows. I loved the complex profiling, sophisticated story-lines, and subtle hints. I thought Hotch was not only adorable, but I also loved the complexity of his character. Although I never criticized those who shipped Hotch and Prentis, I did not prefer this story line either on the actual show. To me, Hotch was unique, and Nameless Faceless, Omnivore, and 100 reinforced my appreciation for Hotch. Once Messer took over in season 7, CM did appear to go downhill. I am in no way insinuating that she is not capable of writing good episodes. But, she also seems way too focused on injecting romance into CM and equates this with telling "personal stories" of characters. There are other personal themes Messer could concentrate on. I totally understand that she wanted to explore a little more about each character's personal lives (I wanted to know for example why Hotch was so serious), but to me this turned into more of a soap opera than subtly written storylines for the characters. Hotch's relationship with Beth is a prime example of the new direction of the show. Messer did not just suggest that Hotch was attempting to date again, but rather quickly forced Beth upon all CM fans. While many fans praised this story as the best Hotch story since Hotch was now happy, many bemoaned the poorly written Beth story. Messer did not just introduce Beth during season 7, but had to include about 4 episodes on her in the season. She pushed this story to no end. And, Hotch's relationship with Beth quickly became romantic without Hotch even questioning moving on. He seemed to move too fast and everything was perfect between Hotch and Beth - which is unbelievable. Not once did he question dating again. The story was simple - meets Beth, dates her and becomes romantic with her, etc. It would have made more sense for Hotch to be just friends with Beth and then to date her in another season. To me, this was poorly written and unbelievable especially for Hotch, who still felt guilty for Haley's death and was still extremely devoted to his work. Also, Beth is definitely not good enough for Hotch. The way the writers introduced Beth is more on the par of a show that is mediocre not on the stellar level of the old Criminal Minds. I thought season 7 was not great, but this episode was even worse. And, I did have high hopes. I know Route 66 has received high accolades, but I thought it was a very divisive episode and was not for all fans. Messer claimed season 9 was for all fans. Rather, Route 66 pushed the Beth story to no end rather than addressing Hotch's guilt for Haley's death. It was in fact mostly about Beth in Hotch' dream sequence. I unfortunately knew Beth would be in this episode, but even I did not predict this much of Beth in Hotch's dream. After the cheesy bunch of crap in the last episode, I do not prefer to watch again for more Beth/Hotch sagas. I am sure episode 200 will include more Beth. The writers of course focus on Prentis appearing in order to draw in fans. The story is way too cheesy and predictable. Probably, this season Hotch will marry Beth. Beth/Hotch romance is what the writers are obviously pushing. It is almost too easy to predict anymore. I am sure the end of the show will be Hotch marrying Beth. I am sorry, but I do not enjoy the "new" direction of Criminal Minds. It has devolved into a show that is predictable and lacks complexity concerning characters like Hotch.
ReplyDeleteNotice:
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in answer to Anonymous at 1:14am:
ReplyDelete"Every Hotch-centered episode includes Beth."
Like every JJ's episode has Will, every Garcia's one has Kevin,... Any episode dealing with the characters' private life will have their significant others. It makes sense even more so in this episode, as Hotch was too close to dying, for him to think about those he loves/loved, and no matter if YOU like it or not, Beth is someone he loves and she was at the forefront of his thoughts while in such a dire situation.
"I appreciated how Criminal Minds differed from cheesy romantic soap opera - type shows. I loved the complex profiling, sophisticated story-lines, and subtle hints."
Re-watch season 9, it is all there; the ‘Final Shot’ episode specially stands out.
"I thought Hotch was not only adorable, but I also loved the complexity of his character."
A trip down his last thoughts as he is lying there, maybe dying, shows that he is even MORE of a complex character... But to see that is necessary to pay attention to what is going on the screen, and not just let yourself get overwhelmed by your hate for the Beth character.
"To me, Hotch was unique, and Nameless Faceless, Omnivore, and 100 reinforced my appreciation for Hotch."
He was from episode 1 season 1; go back and watch LDSK, Natural Born Killer, The Tribe, Ashes and Dust, Psychodrama, In Birth and Death, Seven Seconds, Tabula Rasa, Lo-If, Mayem, Angel Maker, To Hell and Back... And all the others I've missed listing here.
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ReplyDelete"Once Messer took over in season 7, CM did appear to go downhill. I am in no way insinuating that she is not capable of writing good episodes. But, she also seems way too focused on injecting romance into CM and equates this with telling "personal stories" of characters."
That is plain not true. Go back, season 1 episode 1: what is the first scene we see that involves someone from the BAU? Hotch at home, with Haley. Hotch is setting up the crib for the upcoming baby while they talk about baby names and the scene ends with Hotch and Haley kissing. From the first episode, the writers - in this case the show creator Jeff Davis - were interested in the characters' home life. Erica Messer is just doing what was already established.
"There are other personal themes Messer could concentrate on. I totally understand that she wanted to explore a little more about each character's personal lives (I wanted to know for example why Hotch was so serious), but to me this turned into more of a soap opera than subtly written storylines for the characters. Hotch's relationship with Beth is a prime example of the new direction of the show."
Nothing new there, see my comment about season 1 episode 1. The show has dealt with Gideon’s girlfriend, Reid’s girlfriend/interests, Morgan’s dating, Garcia with Kevin, and JJ with Will, all done under Ed Bernero when he was the showrunner.
"Messer did not just suggest that Hotch was attempting to date again, but rather quickly forced Beth upon all CM fans."
Quickly force? Really? When Beth showed up, Hotch had been DIVORCED since season 3 (Ep 3x14 'Damaged', he is served the papers)! The man waited... What...? Over 4 years to DATE again!? That is fast!? Even going by Reid's statistics ‘Statistically, widowers start dating earlier than widows, but Hotch is the exception, it's been 2 years and 19 days...’ - from 7x10. 'Bittersweet Science’ - Hotch was pretty slow getting back into the dating game.
"While many fans praised this story as the best Hotch story since Hotch was now happy, many bemoaned the poorly written Beth story. Messer did not just introduce Beth during season 7, but had to include about 4 episodes on her in the season. She pushed this story to no end."
As with any new storylines, of course they will develop said story! What did you expect, they would mention her once and forget about her right away? THAT is something they have done at times and fans CRIED MURDER, so no, they did not let go of the ball this time, and yet you complain about them following up and developing the story.
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ReplyDelete"And, Hotch's relationship with Beth quickly became romantic without Hotch even questioning moving on. He seemed to move too fast and everything was perfect between Hotch and Beth - which is unbelievable..."
What else could that relationship become? It was obvious even to someone like Hotch ,who isn't by any means Morgan when it comes to flirt with women, that Beth had approached him because she was interested in him. And Hotch did question moving on, watch/read his conversations with Rossi during the ‘Bittersweet science’, but specially the last one.
- Rossi: ‘I am pretty sure Haley would want you to move on’
- Hotch: ‘I am not avoiding moving on’
So yes the writer, in this case Janine Sherman Barrois, did address Hotch concerns and insecurities about moving on.
As for moving too fast: not because we see Hotch meeting Beth at the start, you should assume the discussion at the end of the episode happens the same day, in fact the case they worked on had them away several days, and even with that, there's no indication to let us know how much times goes by until said conversation happens. Remember, time on TV is not like REAL time.
"Not once did he question dating again."
Why should he? Moot point really, because he did, with Rossi, when he was unsure about calling back Beth after their first encounter (see again 'Bittersweet Science').
If you mean "he never discussed dating again before meeting Beth," no he did not, but if you expect Hotch to do so, then you need to re-watch the whole series, because Hotch do NOT talk about himself if he can avoid it! Only time he did so by his own choice was in ‘Damaged’, when he told Reid about the divorce and not getting what he wanted, and he did so only because his behavior was such that it did put his and Reid life in danger; he owed Reid an explanation.
"The story was simple - meets Beth, dates her and becomes romantic with her,"
No, meet Beth, exchange phone numbers, take a while to call her back to go training together, think about dating her, train some more together... Just because we didn’t see them dating often before they became romantically involved, do not mean they didn’t. But knowing Hotch the way we do, you REALLY think he would have just meet her and go to bed with her? If you answer yes to this question... then again you need to re-watch CM, from episode 1 season 1.
"unbelievable especially for Hotch, who still felt guilty for Haley's death and was still extremely devoted to his work."
Since when Hotch could not date someone even if he still felt guilty about Haley? He had been DIVORCED from Haley since season 3, she died in mid season 5. Him dating someone does not exclude him feeling guilty about Haley, unless for you "feeling guilty" means he should not date until he resolves his guilt issues. What if he never gets rid of his guilty feelings completely? Then he would have broken his promise to Haley, to show Jack what love is, because love is the most important thing.
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ReplyDelete"Also, Beth is definitely not good enough for Hotch."
Why is she not? Who would have been a better woman for him? One that would not accept that he is dedicated to his job, one that would not accept his son, one that would not support him. What would be YOUR ideal woman for Hotch?
"The way the writers introduced Beth is more on the par of a show that is mediocre not on the stellar level of the old Criminal Minds."
On most shows Hotch would have meet Beth in a bar, or go for the VERY cliche, ‘date/sleep with coworker/team member’.
"I thought season 7 was not great, but this episode was even worse. And, I did have high hopes. I know Route 66 has received high accolades, but I thought it was a very divisive episode and was not for all fans."
From your posts here, the only reason you hated the episode is because they dealt with Beth; the moment you saw her the episode was a no go for you, so I am puzzled as to how you can judge the episode.
As for the episode being divisive, it is Utopic to think EVERY CM fan will love EVERY episode.
"Messer claimed season 9 was for all fans. Rather, Route 66 pushed the Beth story to no end rather than addressing Hotch's guilt for Haley's death."
If you had watched Route 66 without prejudices clouding your mind, you would have noticed the WHOLE storyline about Hotch was about addressing his guilt over Haley! Really, what do you think it was all about? The whole dream sequence is Hotch addressing his guilt over Haley's death, about his failure in stopping Foyet, about his responsibility to Jack, and about how uncertain he feels about the future (be it with Beth or not).
You truly should put aside your hate for Beth and watch the episode with an open mind, then you will see how wrong you are.
‘It was in fact mostly about Beth in Hotch' dream sequence. I unfortunately knew Beth would be in this episode, but even I did not predict this much of Beth in Hotch's dream’
Of course it was, she is now Hotch love interest. What do you think is the most important to people when they die or are close to death? The job? No, the one they love and the regrets they have. Hotch loved Haley, despite everything that happened between them, he still loves her. He loves his son. He regrets not saving Haley from Foyet, and yes, no matter how much you hate Beth, Hotch loves her, so yes, he will think of her as he is close to death.
"After the cheesy bunch of crap in the last episode, I do not prefer to watch again for more Beth/Hotch sagas."
Your choice.
"I am sure episode 200 will include more Beth. The writers of course focus on Prentiss appearing in order to draw in fans. The story is way too cheesy and predictable."
The fans have been the ones crying out to have Prentiss back, saying it would not be right to do 200th without Paget theree. Go on twitter (or Tumblr, or comments thread where CM is talked about, or...), follow cast and crew, and check comments sent to them, you will see this was at fans' request.
Other than that, you have NO IDEA what 200th is really going to be about, less how is going to be played out. Nobody outside the writers room does. Be careful, you're assuming, and assuming usually leads to bad places to those who do it.
To CMRT
ReplyDeleteI just read your triple comment, and first of all I would like to tell you I am not the one who wrote the comments that obviously upset you. A few months ago I started participating in this threads because I am a CM fan, but after reading this, I just feel this is not the right place to be.
If you don't like some opinions that are different to yours, you have several options, instead of lashing out onto someone that wrote a comment, and in extension, any other reading this post. Here are your options:
A) write your cheerful episode reviews and close the comment sections
B) erase any comment you consider 'wrong' so neither you or us read it
C) ban the comments coming from people whose opinions you dislike.
But...
That won't make us disappear.
I am not a Beth fan, and I don't like the new JJ, and I find Garcia annoying most of the time, so I guess to your eyes I am not a real CM fan, right?
But I understand this is your website, and not mine, so we either play by your rules or don't play at all, so I guess you are entitled to accept or reject whatever is being posted here. I am not pretty sure I would never be accepted in this round table, so I better leave right now.
Goodbye.
McCatry,
ReplyDeleteI would like to tell you that of course you'd be accepted here. I have been. Being a CM fan isn't judged by who you prefer the characters to be romantic with. My preference can never play out as she is now married. Hell I was ANGRY viserally angry when they killed Strauss off and I hated her... But I loved the interaction between her and Rossi. What I'm getting at is that all opinions are welcome, as long as a person doesn't come in, spew venom about a character, and leave. All most posters can ask for is 'please explain you're reasoning'. Give and take that's the basis of a good discussion and debate... vitrol is not necessary.
I hope you stay. Would be interesting to talk... :)
Barb
mcatry said...
ReplyDelete" I just read your triple comment, and first of all I would like to tell you I am not the one who wrote the comments that obviously upset you. "
You are mistaking a reply with facts and asking for clarification for being upset.
"A few months ago I started participating in this threads because I am a CM fan, but after reading this, I just feel this is not the right place to be.
If you don't like some opinions that are different to yours, you have several options, instead of lashing out onto someone that wrote a comment, and in extension, any other reading this post. Here are your options:"
Did I delete the opinion I disagree with? No, I countered what the Anonymous poster posted with facts. Anyone who disagree can post here and have been. But like you, I am a fan and can and will participate in debates.
"
A) write your cheerful episode reviews and close the comment sections
B) erase any comment you consider 'wrong' so neither you or us read it
C) ban the comments coming from people whose opinions you dislike.
But..."
Thanks for your suggestions but will pass as this blog is not about any of this as you obviously miss some of the less then 'cheerful' reviews.
" That won't make us disappear. "
Good!
" I am not a Beth fan, and I don't like the new JJ, and I find Garcia annoying most of the time, so I guess to your eyes I am not a real CM fan, right? "
Who said you are not a real CM fan? this is your words. If we didn't believe in opinions we would close comments on our blog.
"But I understand this is your website, and not mine, so we either play by your rules or don't play at all, so I guess you are entitled to accept or reject whatever is being posted here. I am not pretty sure I would never be accepted in this round table, so I better leave right now.
Goodbye."
The only rules people have to play by here are:
1- be polite
2- respect cast and crew and each others
3- do not spam the blog
And yes, if people cannot respect those rules then sorry, please go somewhere else.
As usual, the CMRT peeps run one of the best sites for CM around. That's because they keep a vigilant eye on things around here and are not afraid to make peeps obey the rules.
ReplyDeleteIt's a discussion site folks. Respect all peeps and discuss CM. As adults; respecting all opinions whether you agree with them or not.
The two necessary ingredients for a good debate... 1. Reasonable people 2. differing opinions.
ReplyDeleteI guess it comes down to what actually constitutes vitriol. I also am not the one who posted the inflammatory comments but I freely confess that I have expressed my anger on various occasions. I love this show to bits and have done from the start so I do get very angry when they don't get things right. In my case, I get angry over the flat Hotch/Beth relationship and the more it goes on the angrier I get and I am sorry but that often spills over. I try to rationalise it by thinking maybe Hotch wants a pedestrian and passionless relationship after all he's been through but Damn! the boy should have a little spark in his life. And CM can and often do get it right. I also dislike JJ 2.0 but cannot deny there is a connection with her and Will. And Blake's husband James lit up the screen with their chemistry when he appeared. I think it's because I love the characters so much that I get angry when the writing or the characters fall short.
ReplyDeleteI’m new to this. Is CMRT the administrator or host of the site? Since the comments have been closed to Anonymous, will Anonymous be able to view CMRT’s responses to Anonymous? I’m stepping back to look at the feeling that goes into the posts and why they can become emotional. Sometimes we’re not fighting for our character, but rather fighting for ourselves. When I saw The Deer Hunter (dating myself) and DeNiro’s portrayal of Michael, I was mesmerized and captured by Michael’s strength. It was visceral. I see the same characteristics in Hotch, and although I am not disconnected from reality, his character and TG’s portrayal is more to me than a TV show. And the question, who is good enough for Hotch – well, me, of course, because I understand him. (Hotch is actually a shy person.) It’s that love map we’re born with, who do we love, who is a magnet for us, what is it about them and not the other guy? We have times in our lives when this projection fills a need. In that regard, it’s about self-knowledge, having a laugh, knowing I’m fully invested in a TV character. And that’s good acting. I love Emily, cannot wait for her return, but she’s not for Hotch. I think one main actor is not that good an actor but would not say that publicly because there’s a chance they might be surfing, and I love all of the actors. Sometimes it’s about us and not the show.
ReplyDeleteThe Round Table could solve their own problems by putting an honest disclaimer on the front page which states plainly and clearly that this blog is a pro-JJ and pro-Beth blog, and no other fans are welcome to post here. You'd save us all a lot of time and effort.
ReplyDeleteYou might claim you accept all viewpoints, but it's obvious that all viewpoints are not welcome BECAUSE YOU'RE DELETING THE COMMENTS FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. Sorry, but that's not open-minded debate. That's called censorship.
Be honest about the point of the blog. Put a disclaimer on your front page that makes it clear this is an echo-chamber for JJ and Beth groupies. Any fan who disagrees with you will not bother to return. You can sit back and enjoy the sound of your squealing gushing pro-JJ and pro-Beth fans without a murmur of discontent from anyone else.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteFirst it is easy to make claims when you do not even post with a name and second WE. DO. NOT. DELETE. POSTS because of viewpoints. only post that gets deleted are spams and hate posts like we had to deal with that made racists comments about Shemar Moore. If we really wanted to silence people and weed out posts it would be easy, we would simply put the blog under moderation.
As for the pro JJ you are barking at the wrong tree, I do not like the new JJ and read our blog and you will see MANY do not either and their voices have not been silenced here. And yes I like Beth and I will continue to say so and you do not like her fine, many have posted here that they do not like her.
From now on, anyone who wish to post here will need to use an account. If debates cannot stay away from imatures arguments as assine as 'Oh you are a PRO JJ/Beth/Character X and you delete posts that are against JJ/Beth/CharactersX' then comments will no longer be allowed.
I suggest Annon at 6.13 read back through some of the comments on this thread alone and it is pretty obvious that this blog is anything but Pro Beth or Pro JJ. Or have I been imagining reading the long and whining complaints about Beth/JJ etc. I would think the CMRT poster feels like a lot of other posters here, that the constant moaning about one minor character, threats of non-viewing again and again, just gets dull. I am not a fan of the new JJ either, it does not work for me. I don't mind Beth (in the teeny appearances she has made thus far), but it does not mean so much to me if her appearances or mentions are sparce. I don't feel the need to vent and vent nor accuse anyone who disagrees with me of being Pro JJ etc. If alternative views were not welcomed on the blog, it would be very simple for admins to block ip address etc. Seems an odd statement to make, given that on this thread alone, there are well over 60 comments with at least half of them being quite critical of certain characters and this episode- those comments are still there, hence the debate. Perhaps it's a technical glitch with your computer, and those comments have appeared to have been deleted on your system...?
ReplyDeleteThe Round Table could solve their own problems by putting an honest disclaimer on the front page which states plainly and clearly that this blog is a pro-JJ and pro-Beth blog, and no other fans are welcome to post here. You'd save us all a lot of time and effort.
ReplyDeleteThe Round Table Blog has stated time and again we have 3 rules:
- No spammers allowed. Period.
- Be polite; everything can be said/explained, but nastiness is completely unnecessary and doesn't have a place here.
- Cast, crew, writers and producers work long and hard to give us the best episodes possible; remember and respect it.
You might claim you accept all viewpoints, but it's obvious that all viewpoints are not welcome BECAUSE YOU'RE DELETING THE COMMENTS FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T AGREE WITH YOU. Sorry, but that's not open-minded debate. That's called censorship.
If you broke one of the 3 rules detailed above, your comment will be unceremoniously deleted. If you don't, it won't be.
Stop shouting, you won't be more right for doing so.
If you can point to a single comment deleted because, and only, of the opinion it reflected, tell everybody here. If you aren't able, what you're doing is slander (conveniently hiding behind a Anonymous post and not owning up to it).
The debate here is so closed, that most of the time, we open the threads but don't even add our own opinions. Yes, you've got it perfectly right.
Be honest about the point of the blog. Put a disclaimer on your front page that makes it clear this is an echo-chamber for JJ and Beth groupies. Any fan who disagrees with you will not bother to return. You can sit back and enjoy the sound of your squealing gushing pro-JJ and pro-Beth fans without a murmur of discontent from anyone else.
Let's ALL be honest. We like the show, we like the characters (some more than others, but for every Knight/Lady the order varies), we love the people who works on this show in any capacity, every single one of them.
And the most important point: we are fans, we spent part of our free time hunting every piece of news from Criminal Minds to make it available to anyone interested, we owe you nothing.
Your turn.
.......................................................................................................................................
TO EVERYBODY INTERESTED IN THIS DEBATE
- Are you aware that the easiest solution to "our own problems" is closing the comments? Can you fathom why we don't do so?
- Why do you come here? Why do you [if applies] comment?
- What do you feel you are entitled to when coming here? Why?
- If you [if applies] don't enjoy the show any more, why are you still watching? Why are you still commenting about it?
- What do you prefer to read/who do you prefer to debate with: a commenter who explains her/his likes AND dislikes, or a commenter who slams characters/situations they disapprove of? Why?
I would really like to read honest answers to those questions, but this time will only be possible to those who log in and own up to their own opinions. Anonymous post is closed until further notice, or maybe forever.
~~~~Sir Elyan The White
.
ReplyDelete@ Hotch Fan
I’m new to this. Is CMRT the administrator or host of the site? Since the comments have been closed to Anonymous, will Anonymous be able to view CMRT’s responses to Anonymous?
Criminal Minds Round Table is the name of the blog. The Knights and Ladies listed half-way the right hand bar are the administrators.
About the comments. Everybody can read all of them. Only logged in commenters can post on the threads.
And please, allow me to thank you for such an honest and insightful comment.
Sir Elyan,
ReplyDeleteYou my friend are dead wrong about this blog censoring anything. I happen to be one of the most vocal Anti JJ fans out there... I literally hate what they've turned her into. If they wanted another Emily then CBS shouldn't have screwed with the actual one. That said, there are posters on here that would like to see the show go in the direction that their persona tastes run. Sorry but that isn't happening and shouldn't. Little know fact... we fans DO NOT OWN any rights to CM, the actors, writers, producers etc.... I will state loud and proud that I do NOT like the Em/Hotch ship... They don't work right together as a couple. To similar personality wise and well she's not the 'motherly' type sorry. I would prefer to see Hotch with someone who accepts his job, respects his love for his son and yes even for his ex-wife. I do feel that somewhere between his divorce in season three and Haley's murder in 100, the show forgot that they divorced. Hotch is NOT a widower. Yet that is how they've played him.
The admins of this board manage this board freely on their own time. A Lot of work goes into keeping this board updated. It is not uncommon for any admin to make a rule that respect shall be granted for all. However there are some here according to my reading that are intentionally trying to push that. My question is WHY? SO that they get banned and can say SEE!? Acting like a spoiled kindergartener isn't responsible behavior.
That's my two cents... and strictly MY opinion.
Sir Eylan, I do not mean to sound as if I'm going after you... Just frustrated by the annonymous posts and the childish behavior. Pardon me for misinterpretting your comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to see that this devolved into an argument with people getting angry. I'm going to try to ignore that and try to respond to some of what was stated as "facts".
ReplyDeleteI do have to disagree with some of the assessments to a degree. Yes, we did see Hotch at home with Haley and preparing for the baby in the series pilot. The point was that they were introducing the lead characters to the audience so we could get an idea of who they were and such. Hotch was initially written as a family man and thus his family was important to show for that introduction. While Ed did have some personal moments and give us some info on the team members throughout the seasons, it was done sparingly and was not the main premise of the show. The show mainly focused on the cases and how the team handled things. It was fun to sit and try to figure out who the unsub was or to get new bits of information along with the team.
My issue is not that they have personal moments or show the personal lives of the team-- its that they do it too often and many times it ends up detracting from the cases. I think that Erica Messer's tastes and preferences on what is entertaining differ quite a great deal from Ed's "voice" and they are certainly not in line with mine. I do think she is trying, but I got the impression that she sort of got the show dumped on her when she really did not have the experience necessary to be able to pick it up and run with it smoothly. She's been having to learn and adapt and there have been some missteps.
I will also say that not all of Hotch's personal drama had to do with Haley over the years-- although a good portion of it did. There was some drama with his brother and about his father and other things.
I have noticed that most (maybe not all) of the personal stories for many of the characters lately have involved love interests. Rossi was hooking up with Strauss, Reid found Maeve, there was that abandoned Tamara Barnes thing for Morgan, Hotch and Beth, JJ and Will, Garcia and Kevin, and so on. Now, JJ did get a story not involving Will with the introduction of the new Section Chief. I like Kevin as a love interest for Garcia because of the way he was introduced and the fact that their relationship made sense.
I am not opposed to Hotch moving on and finding new love. I never shipped Hotch/Prentiss (in fact, I opposed it). I just think the writers made the wrong choice with Beth for many reasons. One being that it seems very one-sided and Beth actually came off as creepy/desperate to me. There were other female characters on the show that were not romantic interests but had much more chemistry with Hotch. Andi Swan is one example.
It's more to do with the execution of the personal stories and the fact that in the previous two seasons the personal stories did not mesh well with the cases. I don't have a problem with seeing the team members in their homes from time to time, but we don't need to have it happen all the time and we don't need some personal drama for each character in every episode (at least when that drama is not directly tied to the case).
I know different people have different preferences on this.
I will say that I was relieved to not be annoyed with Jack in this one because for once his line delivery didn't make me cringe.
(continued)
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the new JJ is even like Prentiss. Prentiss started out with a bit of toughness to her and she was believable in her fight scenes. I did have a problem with the whole spy arc though. I just find it a pity that AJ and the people involved felt that JJ needed to be changed completely to fit rather than the writers finding a way to come up with interesting stories for the media liaison JJ.
More than the personal stories, I'm finding that they show the unsubs too soon and show us what they are doing rather than have us learn about what happened along with the team. Its not quite as bad this season though.
Back to this particular episode, I do wish they'd come up with a more believable way for Hotch's injuries to manifest and I wonder if there will be any physical repercussions or if Hotch will be back to normal.
I agree that the team did not seem quite as concerned and I wish we'd seen them rally around him and come visit him in the hospital. Granted, in "Amplification", Morgan was the only one who visited Reid at the end. When I watched that one I had wished the whole team had been there.
I disagree that Reid would have been so devastated about Hotch. Reid was one of the ones who knew Hotch was in the hospital in the season 5 opener and he kept his cool even though he was worried. Reid can compartmentalize at times. I remember "In Name and Blood" when Gideon was missing and Reid was very worried but all it took was Hotch telling him that he needed his head in the game and Reid was able to focus.
I lost my train of thought because of people in the room bugging me....
First the disclaimer, I am a Hotly, Hotchniss, Hotch/Prentiss shipper; or whatever they’re called this week. I’d love to see Hotch and Emily together one day, especially since she doesn’t work for him anymore; and I believe her spunky intellect and humor are exactly what Hotch needs.
ReplyDeleteI hate Beth for many reasons but primarily because she represents the diminishing of the Hotch character. I loved 905 in spite of her; although it took a second viewing to not be as distracted by the prolonged running of the Beth infomercial.
The reason I hate Beth is not because she’s sweet, saccharine or nice; it’s because she’s what I imagine Haley was like when Hotch met her in high school; only at 40, Beth’s giggly, school-girl mannerisms ring hollow and false. But worse for me is Hotch’s attraction to another school-girl type whose approach to him, if not unsub-like, was reckless. And at a time when his former wife had been savagely murdered, while his child hid in a box upstairs; Hotch’s attraction to this women and her careless/reckless behavior seemed farfetched and unconscionable. The way she approached him should have given him pause. But to expose his son to someone as reckless and immature as Beth appeared to be, should have elicited deep deliberation by Hotch. But because she was cute and perky, there was no time given to greater reflection.
The writers sold Hotch short. Instead of a woman who was his intellectual equal or someone who could protect his son; Hotch settled for cute, giggly and clueless. Beth demonstrated that Hotch is not that much different from Foyet—a man attracted to prepubescent girls. Hotch, even after the horrific murder of Haley; still found himself attracted to a juvenile, school-girl type who could not protect herself, much less his son. And the role Beth played most often, babysitter, in both Hit and Brothers Hotchner. I admired Maeve and the forethought that went into the development of that character—a hybrid of Reid who was his intellectual equal on every level.
Priority one for a man who’s loved and lost before is to not repeat the same mistakes. But for a man of Hotch’s standing who had loved and lost and killed the man who killed his former wife and who would have murdered his son, priority one in a new partner should have been a woman who is aware, confident and equipped; not one who would recklessly run upon a man; clueless about whom he (Hotch) really was and any potential harm. I don’t blame Beth, Hotch is gorgeous; but for Hotch to not demand more for Jack, if not for himself, minimized Hotch’s preeminence.
I hope not but I recognize the writers may have Hotch marry Beth. That would merely underscore how much the character has been diminished and how unrealistic this storyline has become. It’s true that every Hotch-centered episode since her introduction in Bittersweet Science has been buttressed by appearances of Beth. To compare this to JJ and Will and Kevin and Garcia only compounds the issue. Hotch is the lead character and should have his storylines standalone, only sometimes interconnecting with supporting characters. I can’t imagine NCIS’ Gibbs with girlfriend in tow in every Gibbs-focused episode. The more riveting stories where the character drives the action have gone to Morgan, as in Foundation and Restoration; and even Rossi in the Fallen. Omnivore and 100 were classic Hotch episodes that were bolstered by superior performances by Thomas Gibson in both, although Gibson’s performance in Route 66 was equally satisfying.
I enjoyed Route 66 more the second and third times around than the first. I was already prepared to ignore the distraction of the infomercial promoting the woman who has diminished my favorite character. But I have to wonder if Hotch needs that kind of prodding and promotion in his subconscious to recognize the “wonder” that is Beth, he must not be convinced on a conscious level.
Well said teenybit! You have expressed my feelings about Hotch/Beth perfectly although I am not a Hotch/Prentiss shipper. Sadly although I have watched Route 66 again the infomercial ruins the whole thing for me and I doubt I will watch again. The way it diminishes one of my favorite characters is what engenders the anger that often spills out in the forums.
ReplyDeleteWell done, teenybit. I saw Haley as having a total lack of understanding of Hotch’s work and the horrors that the team faced. Since Hotch kept this from her, then as his wife she should have drawn it out of him over the years; she should have assured him that she could handle it. If she had this knowledge, maybe she would have given Hotch a call and not thrown the phone away after The Reaper called her. The BAU is comprised of the chosen few like Navy Seals and Green Berets. Incredibly difficult work, but their families have to sacrifice for the benefit of the greater good. Haley should have figured this out. And when Hotch was home, he was all over Haley and Jack; everyone should be so fortunate. So for me, Haley did not truly appreciate Hotch; she didn’t even know him. Haley did not grow in their relationship. Mentally and emotionally, she remained in high school. And now for Hotch to be hooked up with vacuous Beth is painful. It’s as if BY/Beth is deliberately portrayed with the pageant hair and giggly mannerisms. Hotch may not necessarily be attracted to immature types like Beth. Beth took the lead and got Hotch. He never would have approached her or any other woman at that time. There will always be a split with viewers who want the personal back story and those who want the case at hand. My interest is so grabbed by each of the characters/actors that I enjoy the back story.
ReplyDeleteteenybit said...
ReplyDelete«But worse for me is Hotch’s attraction to another school-girl type whose approach to him, if not unsub-like, was reckless.«
How so? If they had been in a bar and she had approached Hotch, would this have been reckless? If so, then that mean no woman could have initiated any approach to Hotch, he would have had to take the first step...
How can it be unsub-like, behavior to approach someone you're interested in and ask!? She didn't ask for a date, she keep her distance, he was surprised, he didn't jump on her, he was running but she asked for advice on how to better train for the cycling stint of a triathlon... Hummm... Maybe this last bit tells us she had seen him training there several times already? Maybe this last bit tells us she steeled her courage to approach him to ask? Of course she was attracted to him, but she was training too, and her petition was legitimate.
«And at a time when his former wife had been savagely murdered, while his child hid in a box upstairs; Hotch’s attraction to this women and her careless/reckless behavior seemed farfetched and unconscionable.«
Hotch met Beth way after Haley was dead, 2 years and 19 days before... per Reid. You make it looks like it was the day before Just because his wife had been murdered by a serial killer he should be worried of a woman approaching him in a park? Interesting.
«The way she approached him should have given him pause. «
It did, he asked her if she was training for surveillance and whose to say he never had Garcia run a full check on her?
« But to expose his son to someone as reckless and immature as Beth appeared to be, should have elicited deep deliberation by Hotch »
Where in the few scenes we have seen with Beth have we seen her reckless? Is her approaching a man in a park that she found attractive considered reckless? Had she approached him, let say at Jack’s school in a parents meeting, been less reckless? I fail to see any recklessness on her part, or Hotch for that matter.
« The writers sold Hotch short. Instead of a woman who was his intellectual equal or someone who could protect his son; Hotch settled for cute, giggly and clueless. «
Beth is no light weight in the intellectual department, she is a museum curator; here is what is needed to be a museum curator: ‘Art museum curators generally need to have a Bachelor’s degree in fine art, art history, or a related field. A Master’s degree in a more specialized field is also usually required. On top of those degrees, many museum curators earn their Doctoral degrees as well. Individuals interested in a museum curator career should also consider earning a degree in museum studies as well. »
source :http://www.theartcareerproject.com/gain-creative-control-with-a-museum-curator-career/556/
(cont)
(cont)
ReplyDelete« Beth demonstrated that Hotch is not that much different from Foyet—a man attracted to prepubescent girls. Hotch, even after the horrific murder of Haley; still found himself attracted to a juvenile, school-girl type who could not protect herself, much less his son. «
Whooooa! That is so wrong in so many levels... Hotch met Haley in high school when they were BOTH teens! Being perky and giggly does not mean she is a always-a-teen type person. Garcia is perky and giggly but not a prepubescent type. Hayley sure was not, and neither is Beth. Beside, if Hotch was attracted to school girls, he would not be at the head of The Behavioral Analysis Unit, the psy evaluation would have ferreted him out the moment he would have applied for a spot in the FBI.
« Hotch is the lead character and should have his storylines standalone, only sometimes interconnecting with supporting characters. I can’t imagine NCIS’ Gibbs with girlfriend in tow in every Gibbs-focused episode. The more riveting stories where the character drives the action have gone to Morgan, as in Foundation and Restoration; and even Rossi in the Fallen. »
You seem to forget that Rossi had a story arc with his ex-wife. Morgan had a very short episode with Tamara. And all of Morgan focused episodes have all been about his past as an abused kid. Hotch had an episode with his brother, the fact that Beth was in was simply to explain why Hotch would be in NYC; Beth, like Jack was nothing more than the excuse that conveniently explained why Hotch was in the City and could come and help his brother in a matter of minutes. It would have been strange that Hotch would not have visited his girlfriend while staying in NYC.
zanneej said
ReplyDelete« I do think she is trying, but I got the impression that she sort of got the show dumped on her when she really did not have the experience necessary to be able to pick it up and run with it smoothly. She's been having to learn and adapt and there have been some missteps. »
Agreed. People seems to forget that this is Erica’s first job as showrunner. Mind you she had a great teacher in Ed but still, CM is a big business to run and it is hard to start with a show that is such a big success.
« I will also say that not all of Hotch's personal drama had to do with Haley over the years-- although a good portion of it did. There was some drama with his brother and about his father and other things. »
True, some had to do with dealing with Strauss trying to get rid of him. His leadership problem with Morgan with whom he at time clashed.
« There were other female characters on the show that were not romantic interests but had much more chemistry with Hotch. Andi Swan is one example. »
As much as I like Hotch and Beth, I would have prefered Hotch and Swan, she was an interesting character who did work well with Hotch.
« I don't think that the new JJ is even like Prentiss. Prentiss started out with a bit of toughness to her and she was believable in her fight scenes. »
I do not think JJ is like Prentiss but I think the writers are trying to make her like Prentiss. With Prentiss being tough and snarky came naturally, with JJ it feel not wrong…maybe just not natural. Maybe this is because for those of us who have watched from season 1 we have known the original JJ and this new one register as false.
« More than the personal stories, I'm finding that they show the unsubs too soon and show us what they are doing rather than have us learn about what happened along with the team. Its not quite as bad this season though. »
This been a big complain for me since season 6. It is as if the writers decided to try to tell the stories in a new way by giving a voice to the unsub when that voice have been, largely the team. This season they seems to want to go back to focus on the team profiling the unsubs, hope this will remain true for the whole season.
(cont)
(cont)
ReplyDelete« Back to this particular episode, I do wish they'd come up with a more believable way for Hotch's injuries to manifest and I wonder if there will be any physical repercussions or if Hotch will be back to normal. »
I too thought this was unbelievable until someone on a forum whose mother is a nurse gave us a link to cases of people suffering the type of injuries Hotch had and got repercussion from the original stabbing up to 20 years after the incident.
Interesting comments you had!
Teenybit, whatever you are smoking, I urge you to stop now lol –“….Hotch is not that much different from Foyet—a man attracted to prepubescent girls. Hotch, even after the horrific murder of Haley; still found himself attracted to a juvenile, school-girl type who could not protect herself, much less his son. For real????
ReplyDeleteAnyway what I really wanted to comment on was this. Is it at all possible that those who so virulently hate the character of Beth, do not so much hate the actual character as much as what she represents i.e Hotch moving on with someone other than Prentiss (if you are this way inclined) or if not, as I am aware that not all Beth disliking commenters are HP peeps, that the decision to have him start a relationship was decided without consulting ‘fans’ as to who they think he should be with. The reason I ask this, is because much of the hate now so vocalized across many forums, not just this one, by a small posse, really manifested itself long before the character of Beth ever appeared on screen. Before S7 even aired, EM was interviewed (looking for interview). She was asked about the upcoming season and it was at that time hinted that Hotch might begin to look forward, move on i.e meet someone and possibly begin a relationship – obviously I am paraphrasing but this was the general consensus. It is well known that the actors have quite a lot of input into their characters and it was stated both by EM and TG in a later interview, that he, that is TG, had asked for this storyline. Almost immediately the vitriol began both towards EM and TG, with such gems as “thanks Thomas Gibson, you have single handedly ruined CM for me”. This was on the mild side of things, won’t quote tweets etc to TG suggesting it would be great if his children were sexually assaulted, seeing as he had destroyed the show – and no, it was not put as politely as this. EM received similar and all of this was before BY was even remotely considered for the role. This was similar to what went on, when for the umpteenth time, the actors, whom so many fans profess to adore and respect, in this case TG and PB, poured cold water, on the idea of there ever being anything other than a professional relationship between their characters. No matter how many times they said this and no matter how many times the reiterated the reasons why not, it still did not seem to register, cue the abuse. Of course when BY was cast, she received similar abuse. I might add also, that TG was involved in the casting of BY, screen tests, pre-meetings etc.
Contd: When the character of Beth was introduced, we then got and continue to have the myriad of over active or indeed in most cases redundant and non-existent imaginations that spew out erratic statements, and view scenes with a blinkered and stubborn attitude. One particular scene in which this was evident, was their first date. They had already made tentative plans to meet on Friday, we see the scene in Hotch’s office with Morgan and we then see him turn up at Beth’s door. Now, if for 1 milisecond, the commentators on various forums who called the character such delightful names as w***re and s**t, because of the way she was dressed and insinuated that she was basically sitting waiting dressed like that (I thought she looked fantastic by the way), had bothered to actually listen to the dialogue, it was very obvious that she knew he was coming over. My imagination would assume that perhaps he called her and suggested that they go out that night, she got ready, he got ready and the rest is as they say history. The dialogue between the characters at the door would suggest this is in fact the case – she did not say, “oh hi Aaron, what are you doing here”, no, she was ready to go when he arrived to pick her up because she knew he was on the way – simples.
ReplyDeleteContd: Then we have the “she is obviously a stalker” nonsense, because of how she approached him, as others have eloquently commented on this. Have none of you ever spotted someone you find attractive, and maybe even spotted them a few times, in different places, maybe even purposely ‘spotted’ them and wondered if they were single, married, in a relationship etc, maybe you would have liked to approach them, maybe even approached them – does that mean you are a stalker then?
ReplyDeleteIf you have a partner, do you sleep naked, or semi naked together every-time you share a bed? Why do I ask this? Well, apparently because Hotch was wearing a t-shirt in the scene with Beth in ‘Brother’s Hotchner’, this constitutes further proof of the illegitimacy of this relationship…..insert large sigh and rolling eyes here! Of course, had we been led to believe that they were naked, having sex etc while Jack was in the apartment, in the next room, we would no doubt have had another litany of abuse towards the character. This would have of course proven just what a hussy she is….insert yet another sigh and double eye roll here.
Contd: And as for all the “she’s to giggly, school girly etc” – firstly, you obviously don’t know the same schoolgirls I do, and secondly, why is this an issue. Maybe that’s exactly what he needs. Haley was totally different and that worked well – not!, so maybe someone light hearted, fun and open, is good for Aaron. I say Aaron, because Aaron is not Hotch imo. Someone commented on an earlier post that Aaron is shy and I believe this. TG played this perfectly on both their first meeting and when he wanted to ask her out on a date – totally different from the cool as you like, stoic Hotch. And as others have said, she has stuck around. She is obviously aware of the situation and showed great understanding of this when she mentioned that she would like to come see him at his triathlon but understood that Jack would be there…
contd: I don’t for a second believe that Hotch would have allowed her to get involved in the most precious part of his life – Jack, if he did not trust her and would absolutely not leave him in her care. Again, my imagination tells me, that they meet each other more than we have seen on screen, that it is not always Hotch travelling to NYC, nor do I believe that this character would use endearments such as “I love you” lightly, nor jump into the sack with just anybody. I do believe that he has been holding back somewhat and perhaps now, we may see him losing some of this restraint. For those who claim that Hotch has changed because of Beth, how so? Has he been poorer at his job, is he distracted, does he not have the same determination, drive, professionalism, emphathy etc?
ReplyDeleteHas Aaron changed because of Beth? I hope so. I hope he has or will learn to relax more, to have fun and to remember what the love of his life (yep, I believe this), told him, “to remember that love is the most important thing”. And if Beth allows him to do this, is it not better that this is the version of his father that Jack sees and grows up with, rather than a guilt ridden, closed off, wound up, lonely soul, pining for a ghost ?
I could drabble on and on but there probably is no point. I’ve put a few of my views across. I’ve said this before, I really cannot figure out why people get so worked up and stressed out and feel so cheated, by a character who really is a minor player and who most likely will be even more minor in the future. Hey, I’m with you. If it was an issue in every episode or the show, I’d be expressing my displeasure also – same as I would be when it’s about Will or Kevin or whatever other partners there may be, because it’s not that type of show.
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, but an open mind is a wonderful thing too. My next post may be in defence of poor Haley, who was apparently not good enough for him either…J
Finally, what an interesting debate this episode has opened. Don’t remember any other episode having so many comments. Of course if we were to count the “deleted” ones….LOL, only messing Round Table Knights J
October 29, 2013
ReplyDeleteI just don’t like the character of Beth nor the way she is portrayed by BY, who shines as a viper on Scandal. I thought the way Beth and Hotch met and the way Beth approached Hotch was great, since it was in character for him not to make the first move. The “tea tea” scene was great. Kissing him while walking to his car was great. She’s a museum curator and that’s great. Hotch must move on, and if he doesn’t, the vibe could get strange. I think it’s BY in that role.
Disclaimer (sort of)...Before anyone on this board gets their undergarments in a knot - I am in no way insinuating that any of the posters/commentators on this board were responsible for or share the views mentioned in my posts (unless clearly stated i.e I would have made a direct reference to poster's comments, if that is what I was referring too. Of course, with all thes annon posters, that's not so easy). These were samples found in various locations and posted as an example of some of the views that were being touted regarding these developments. I am sure there are other posters who can verify that these samples are based on true facts e.g tweets etc. They have been posted merely to pose a question, state a personal opinion, add to the debate.
ReplyDeleteIn defense of poor Haley? Alan Dershowitz couldn’t defend Haley.
ReplyDeleteErin Strauss, Your opinion was spot on. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteHotch Fan, The only one who could get off for Haley's Behavior toward Hotch is OJ himself,
No clue who Alan Deshowitz is. TV lawyer, real lawyer? I’m not American, I assume he is. Enlighten me. I may be in need of a good lawyer in the near future. Poor Haley - well, as I see it, Haley has always been unfairly treated and blamed in the break up of her marriage. Now, in my world, there are generally two people required to form a marriage and balance would suggest that those two people should be at least attempting to contribute to the stability of this, on an equal basis. My experience at least, from a long term relationship. Now, I am a 100% dedicated follower of Hotch. Total Hotch freak, would have a statue of him in my home to offer adoration to, if I could get my hands on one....but, a realist also and not so naive as to think that this man is perfect. If I put aside my fondness for the man, and examine his faults, then I have to conclude, that he bears quite a bit of responsibility for the break up of his marriage and that the massacre of the character of Haley is a little unfair. Many have said she knew what she was marrying into. Well that's not entirely true. Hotch was actually a lawyer I believe when they married. She did not seem to have to many issues when he was with SWAT or any of the other jobs he had although I am sure she worried and would, as any normal person would, have wished that he had a safer job, a more home life friendly job, a more relationship friendly job - not entirely unreasonable in my view.
ReplyDeleteCONTD: The BAU was/is very different and as their life changed with the arrival of their son, I really cannot see why people think she was being whiney, or nagging or unreasonable to expect that her husband and father of her son, would be around more than he was. That, when family events or just couple orientated events were organised such as birthdays, dinners, night’s out, holidays, that she could expect that he would be with his family, his wife for these. If you think back, in pretty much every scene we saw with Hotch and Haley, Hotch was always called away to the job, even when he was on holiday and suspended. We also see him being so caught up in work, that he misses his son’s hospital appointment. Hotch acknowledged himself that he was missing out on much of his son’s life and that was while they were still together. Haley done her best to keep him involved by videoing these landmarks etc – she could have not bothered. She warned Hotch that he was in danger of missing out on Jack’s life – note it was about Jack, not her, although I am sure she missed her husband also. OK, so it was not so nice that she left when he was gone, but Hotch seemed pretty sure that this was a possibility. He knew when he left for that case, a case that technically he should have had nothing to do with, that he was gambling big time with his marriage and family, but he still choose to go. It was hinted that Haley may have been cheating on Hotch, and that she might be playing hardball regarding the divorce. I feel that these references were put in there to give a semblance of sympathy to Hotch.
ReplyDeleteShe did not stop Hotch seeing his son – he was just never around, so if he did not see his son for 3 weeks, it was because he was not available.
CONTD: The other thing that gets me in this topic, are peoples views as to how Haley re acted when she heard Hotch had been attacked. Again, have people actually watched the episode 5.01? When team came to house, when she got over shock, first thing she asked was “where was Aaron”, when Jack is being sorted out, she again asks about Hotch. First thing she asks when she enters his hospital room is “how are you feeling” and later “are you going to be alright”? What more could she do? It would have been ridiculous if she had rushed in and embraced him. In fact, the way the actors played it, was more poignant IMO. I have never felt that either wanted this divorce to happen, so there was always this uncomfortable, painful atmosphere between them. So she was pissed about being uprooted? And not for any sort of innocent reason – a freaking serial killer had her and her child in his sights. Yet again, her husband, actually her ex-husbands job, had invaded her family. She had to leave her home, her life, her family and uproot her child, and look over her shoulder for however long – yeah, she was such a moaning Maggie! She paid a pretty hefty price in the end, and could have really been the bitter old hag so many had painted her, now that she faced death because of something that should have had nothing to do with her. But she did not do this. There really is not point in saying she was stupid not to recognize Foyet or she should have called Hotch – she was scared, she had been told her Aaron was dead. I think she was entitled to be a little panicked, not thinking straight. Just my two cents worth and of course I understand that others have a very different view - would be so boring if we all agree all the time. Sorry to CMRT admins etc for long posts, just felt like getting some things out there. I shall retreat to my hidey hole for now.
ReplyDeleteMy views align with Zaneej and Teenybit .
ReplyDeleteI agree spot on with the response by CMRT. It reflects my attitude exactly.
ReplyDeleteAnd to teenybit, I applaud your courage for admitting your comments were from an H/P shipper. And I mean that very sincerely. Thank you. While I don't agree with your opinion, I respect it because of your honesty.
I kind of resent the implication that as someone who doesn't like the Beth character I was predisposed to hate her purely it was because Hotch was moving on. Not so. Any predispositions I had were that this might be another sign of the show moving further from its core premise of the team and the profiling. I was more than happy for Hotch to move on and be happy especially as I agree that Haley behaved dreadfully. The bottom line with Hotch and Beth comes down to chemistry and that is what lacks between TG and BY. My favorite characters are Reid and Hotch and they managed to get the chemistry right with Reid and Maeve - it crackled down the phone line between them. Hotch and Beth? Zip. Zilch, Nada,Nothing. As a result the relationship is flat and pedestrian and always seems forced and staged. The longer it goes on the more irritating it becomes as I think Hotch deserves a real and believable romance (and definitely NOT with Prentiss!!). It has reached the point where a sighting or mention of Beth taints the whole episode. I have tried to analyze this and read all the comments pro and against but at the root of it is the total lack of chemistry. Reid and Maeve had it, Blake and her husband had it, Hotch has had it with other women he has crossed paths with like Andi Swann and Kate Joyner. He just doesn't have it with Beth and sadly it is not a thing you can correct - it's either there or it isn't. We see this lack of connection elsewhere such as whenever JJ and Morgan are teamed up together and when Ashley Seaver was on the team. As for the change in direction of the show, how lovely was it to see 9.03 Final Shot which was a true CM episode in every sense. I wish we could see more episodes like that where the team and the profiling are the focus and not the unsubs or the personal stories that aren't closely tied into the cases.
ReplyDeleteYou have a right to your opinion Mary and I will respect it. Do I agree? No.
ReplyDeleteBeth is a very mature, highly intelligent individual that took at chance at approaching a handsome man that she thought was attractive. To me, in my little small world, that is a woman of courage. And more importantly, a woman of confidence. She's not a giggly teenager as many have portrayed her around here, IMHO. It takes a confident, highly intelligent woman with a lot of guts to approach a man. Let alone one like Hotch. IMHO,
she's got grit.
Mary, while I highly and absolutely respect your opinion, how much time has the Beth storyline taken away from the team? I believe someone totalled up all of S7. In all, it was less than six minutes. For the whole season. So how much time did this totally take away from the team?
I go back to my core thinking. The ACTORS want this piece of the puzzle to flesh out their characters. And EM and writers are giving them that.
And it takes even more to enter into a relationship with a man that has a demanding job, with all the travel time and had a young son to boot. To me, that tells me the buy-on into the relationship that Hotch and Beth have forged. In my world, that can't come easy. But Beth has crossed that line, willing to do that. That's true love. And that's my humble take.
Erin Strauss, by now you probably know that Alan Dershowitz is a high profile defense attorney, a real one, not TV. You’re right, two people form a marriage and if Aaron had any deal breaking flaws, such as an abusive personality, gambling, undertipping wait staff, then it was never revealed to the viewers. Would you have divorced Aaron?? I don’t think that Aaron was a profiler when they married, but rather a federal prosecutor. Things change, nothing remains the same, especially over the course of a marriage. Maybe some of the team deliberately chose this line of work, but after a while, as demonstrated on CM, the work now chooses the team. They are so good, so connected to each other, the need for their expertise is so desperate to the victims’ families – how many of them have turned down promotions to remain with the BAU? This is a vocation for them, not a career, and there are few people who can do the work successfully. Their elite work is a huge hardship for any marriage, but these guys are not CPA’s trying to meet an April 15th deadline (tax deadline in the States) or working out a software glitch for a Fortune 500. And how many of us were left by our (former) husbands to care for the kids and house, like Haley, when, in fact, some of our husbands were on the golf course and not saving torture victims? And those golfing husbands sure didn’t treat their families as well as TG/Aaron and sure didn’t look like him. You’re right, Aaron knew he was gambling with his marriage when he left for the case, and he said it would be the last case and he would go to a desk job, and we all know he would never have returned to a desk job. It would have been lame for Haley to rush in and embrace Aaron in the hospital bed. But to stand in the doorway and not even approach his bedside, touch his hand, while he was saying to her, I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you? Kill me. I did not see Haley's standing in the doorway as poignant on her part; it showed a lack of caring and respect for what they once had together. It wasn't like he was recovering from passing a kidney stone. That distance that she kept spoke volumes. To have Haley and Jack uprooted was a desperate situation for all three of them. But life throws incredible challenges and again and again, Aaron was not an insurance salesman, and at some point, Haley needed to put on the big girl panties and be the one to have his back at home. She never understood his work, nor made an effort to. I would have been more than panicked if I were on the run with Jack from a serial killer, but if I got a call from a stranger saying Aaron were dead – pretty sure I would have called Aaron.
ReplyDeleteMary, in fairness, I would have thought my little mini disclaimer might have covered any assumptions that my comments were insinuations of some sort – alas, it seems not.
ReplyDeleteI guess you could say this is another example of subjectivity – some may read comments, statements etc and see a particular message, while others may see something completely different. Whether or not two people have or do not have ‘chemistry’ is, in my humble opinion at least, also subjective to outsiders. And I think it is somewhat fair to say that this subjectivity can at least be influenced by preconceptions. Not for a second am I saying that the characters of Hotch and Beth are the most sizzling screen duo since Burton and Taylor, but my screen does not form icicles when they are together either. Hotch/Prentiss fans/shippers will say that there is oodles of chemistry between those two. I am not a shipper of anyone on the show, but I am not fervently against it. I certainly enjoy that particular coupling in FF. H/P have some great stories. But for me at least, onscreen, I saw nothing more than a friendly, respectful, trusted, professional, relationship that warmed over time. I have no doubt that H and P like each other, but romantically? Nah, I just don’t see it. I also don’t see anything extraordinary between JJ and Will, and this might be because I find the character of Will quite annoying and tend to switch off mentally when he is on. I like the actor though. J Now, that is not to say it was non-existent. As I said, I was not keen on an onscreen relationship between H and P, as I firmly felt it would not work for this show, so maybe there was chemistry but I did not want to see it – anyone see where I am going with this?? J
Contd: I certainly agree that Hotch had something with some of the other female characters that appeared from time to time – I saw flirty with Kate Joyner and I believe this was done to have viewers wonder, did they or didn’t they. I also saw a little spark with the lawyer from Tabula Rasa and of course with Andi. But I also saw the inane respect that Hotch has for professional colleagues and in particular female colleagues, and I’m not sure he would have crossed that line.
ReplyDeleteHis relationship with Beth is totally different and thus how they act around each other will be. I personally have felt that at times it does seem a little more from one side than the other. But I’ve never felt that it is because they are somehow not suited or that there is a lack of chemistry between the actors. This does of course happen, I’m not denying that, but I don’t think it’s necessarily the case here. I actually feel it may be acting choices and here is why I think that. Given what we know about the character of Hotch and indeed Aaron and what we have learned over the course of the last episode, Aaron’s slight ‘detachment’ sort of fits. He is moving into this with a lot of personal and emotional baggage and for many reasons (like we saw in this episode), he has not given himself completely. He has a lot more to loose if this goes south. She is a very different personality to the woman he spent over 20 years with and I also think that even dating is something quite new to Aaron. I think Beth gets this and she also gets that she probably will have to do most of the ‘work’ in this relationship, at least for a while, but I guess she figures it is worth it.
The fact is that Beth is sticking around, whether on or off screen. I don’t believe that so much would have made of her character and what she means to Aaron and Jack, if there were not future plans. These are just my thoughts, ideas, possibilities. Not assuming the are correct or asking anyone else to, nor am I dissing anyone else’s right to disagree. Merely putting my open mind to use. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m about ready to move on for now. New episode to watch tonight. BY not in the credits…darn……KIDDING.
P.S if my comments bring us to 100 - I want a prize. TG wrapped in nothing but a bow will be fine....
Hotch Fan - fair points, well made. Not saying either of us are right or wrong. I simply like to add alternatives, different views, points of discussions. Peace out.
ReplyDeleteErin, so again we disagree – you want Aaron in a nothing but a bow and when I think of Aaron in the bulletproof vest with the two loaded guns – I’ll stop here. Chemistry is like DNA, so personal, yes, so subjective. I love Aaron and Prentiss as intellectual equals, respect, appreciation, but there were no romantic sparks. I like Will but can see how the accent could wear thin, but I’m a transplant to the south anyway. Aaron is definitely emotionally stifled to some degree, could even be lingering PTSD, and it looks like Beth is willing to wait it out. I know I would.
ReplyDeleteWhoooo hoo, 100. I sincerely hope CMRT people that TG will be squeezing through my letter box tomorrow morning... Hotch Fan - I'll give you the FBI vest for sure, it's does have an effect on the old pulse rate. Maybe the bow might be wrapped around it, but really the less obstacles in the way, the better. And velcro can be dangerous. Oh and have no doubt his guns will be loaded..I just never specified which guns those would be...mwhaaaaa. I'll let you know how we get on :)
ReplyDeleteErin Strauss said...
ReplyDelete"Whoooo hoo, 100. I sincerely hope CMRT people that TG will be squeezing through my letter box tomorrow morning..."
We are wrapping him up in as we speak, expect a home delivery soon!
and thank you for taking part in this lively discussion in such a civil and polite manners. Same for you Hotch Fan :)
Ehhh Hem.... Folks... I have to report that UPS called they lost your package... was misdirected to NY... I promise to return only slightly unscathed.... :)
ReplyDeleteErin - I want details. Barbara - I’m moving back to New York.
ReplyDeleteWow, was I nieve to think that at least 70 people would have been participating here considering the numbers? And to think I felt quilty if I occasionally entered more then one time. This has given me cause to reconsider the value of this blog which I was believing meant near as many opinions as were entries. Now I understand why the anon category was deleted. With a few dominating, it can hardly be fair to claim a divergent fan base. This is not a fault of CMRT and I can now understand some of the frustrations. Polite, emmm?
ReplyDeleteHey Hotch Fan.... Just let me know when you're coming... I can 'hide' then... LOL
ReplyDeleteTammi, you may have an understanding of some apparent frustration but I’m not sure I have an understanding of exactly what your issue is with regards to posting. Forgive me, but as you have not stated specifics, I am going to have to make some assumptions. You seem to think that a few are dominating the entries? Are you referring to multiple posts by some users, myself included? Well if you are, I think you should know, that this is a logistical issue rather than an attempt by certain posters to dominate the board. If you actually read any of those posts, you will see that they are generally one comment but as there is a limit to the number of words that can be submitted at one time in a single post, comments have to be split into multiple posts. So, a technical issue, out of the hands of posters.
ReplyDeleteI’m not sure what you have to feel guilty about. I’m sure the Admins have no problem how many times you visit or post. Were you forbidden from posting on more than one occasion? Again unless it is a technical issue, I don’t see why this would be the case.
As for the Annon’s issue. No posts have been deleted. Rather the ability to post without an ID has been disabled. This was not done without warning or reason. That reason being, that most (not all), of those posting under the anon header, were not willing to engage in any sort of meaningful, or courteous debate, preferring instead to attempt to incite disagreement rather than encourage discussion and debate, whether this be agreeable or other wise. When challenged on this or challenged on any of their comments, they choose to respond with yet more of the same. I suggest you read the posts. You will see that there is a large degree of disagreement and diverse opinions among the posters. At least if the posters are using a name, it is easier and politer to address specific issues, comments, statements, than a faceless nameless entity or a timestamp. The blog is as diverse as the people who post on it wish it to be. The blog is open to the entire fan base. If a particular block of that fan base choose not to post, that’s their decision. Peace out.
Barbara, I’m boarding the plane to New York as I type. Tammi, as for me, please feel free to enter comments more than one time. If you don’t want to view multiple posts from a specific blogger, you can scroll past them. A blogger’s second, third or last post is as valuable as their first post as they are then bouncing off other bloggers’ views and the discussion broadens. As Erin Strauss said, CMRT can’t force people to participate. I believe CMRT would let us know if we were dominating the blog. See CMRT post dated October 30th at 12:06 pm.
ReplyDeleteHotch Fan, "We're going into hiding now." LOL
ReplyDeleteTammi, The purpose of any blog is to encourage discussion and debate regarding a topic. Not all topics however are going to be the "Happy, Feel Good, fuzzy critter topics" that some people want. And That's ok, as long as bloggers remain respectful and tactic throughout, I have no problem if a poster add's 100 comments to a blog. I believe what brings out the defensiveness in posters is when someone is nasty, mean, arguementative and crude towards another poster. the Admin's of CMRT have created a wonderful place here, and I hope that you'll join in the discussions.
Real Life often swoops in and darkens many of our skies, and yet here and other spots online we can forget and discuss something that all of us have in common and that's CM. Here we're surrounded by like minded people who otherwise may not have a place to talk about our favorite show.
That's my two cents. Now excuse me, I need to pack TG up and escape HotchFan, before she tries to interupt my "FUN'!
Hotch Fan and Barbara - I really am at a loss as to why either of you are wasting your hard earned dollors and adding unnessesary carbon footprints, for what is a lost cause. TG arrived here yesterday, looking dapper and in ship shape and ready to rock. Concious of his middle age years, I am allowing him to have a little nap in order to recharge all relevant pleasure points in preparation for round 17. Sorry ladies, this young chick just goosed you old hens..:))))
ReplyDeleteAll right, you two. My wheels are up and I’m heading north to rescue TG from your oncoming freezing weather and show him the GOLF COURSES he so loves. And this old hen could show him a couple of other things, too.
ReplyDeleteLadies I offer a solution.... We SHARE!!!
ReplyDeleteA win-win for us and TG!
ReplyDeleteTo those I've left wondering- Me thinks you doth protest too much! I do enjoy your opinion, but's that the point - it's not in the pleural or multiples thereafter. I have no need to debate beyond what I perceive as extremely unfair, after all if I respect your opinion I don't need to challenge it. And yes, in the past we were asked to be aware of excessive "air time" in fairness to all.
ReplyDeleteBut that is the point – we are not one person, we are plurals (or pleurals as you say), and as such, you will hear more than one voice in response to your post on a blog. Then there’s freedom of speech, First Amendment, and all that, in addition to the CMRT administrators monitoring the blog at the time of our postings. Rest easy, future episodes won't generate the need to expound in the way that Route 66 did.
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid Tammi I am as confused about your latest post as I was about your first. Protest? about what and where exactly?. I thought I explained in reasonably simple terms why it appeared that some posters had more comments than others, but maybe you missed it. Frankly I really don't get what your issue is. Do you feel that once a comment is made, it should be left at that? No need, reason or right for others to comment on that? Sounds like a bit of a bore fest IMO. If you don't feel the need or desire to debate further or contribute more to a specific debate or read comments on a particular thread, then just don't. There is this very functional little arrow, probably on the right of your screen, that allows for bypass of disagreeable topics. But just because you don't want to, why should those who wish to engage in conversation, chatter, debate, disagreement :), feel they cannot, or that they need to restrict their input, because others have a chip on their shoulder. Should posters form a que and wait to see if anyone else posts, or maybe pick a number, have a quota of allowable posts, I don't know, what would be a "fair" way to run this in your view ?
ReplyDeleteAs for restricting 'air time' - I trust the admins of the site. I'm sure if they felt that this particular thread had run its course or was getting out of hand, they would intervene. But for the most part, the debate has been lively, entertaining, and actually quite fun. You'd know that it you didnt skip over the dominant posts. So, obviously the admins are happy enough to keep this thread open.
Tammi Tarren said...
ReplyDelete“. I have no need to debate beyond what I perceive as extremely unfair, after all if I respect your opinion I don't need to challenge it. And yes, in the past we were asked to be aware of excessive "air time" in fairness to all. “
Ideas and opinions can be debated; it is in the manners those are debated that will force one of the admins to intervene. In the past we have asked people to NOT post over and over the same thing. An example of that is, someone using the anonymous option, posting the same thing a few times. Something like this ‘ I hate character X, writer Y cannot write for the characters and the showrunner ruined the show for me since she got the job’ This type of opinion is fine but what is not is when people question why the person posting this said ‘why do you hate character X, writer Y and in what way is the show ruin?’ and the person reply with again the same post ‘I hate character X, writer Y and the showrunner ruin the show for me’. This is not discussion but hammering readers over the head with the same opinion. This is the same behavior of those voting over and over on polls which for polls is called ‘stuffing the ballot box’. If you noticed, here you cannot vote on the polls twice.
We try to favorite it all, sharing of opinions, debate and argumentation, If we didn't want people to share their views and talk about episodes we would only have a poll and no comments thread.
Last, we have said it before and will say it again ALL opinions are welcomed as long as people, are polite to the cast, crew and each others.
Hotch Fan said...
ReplyDelete“Tammi, as for me, please feel free to enter comments more than one time. If you don’t want to view multiple posts from a specific blogger, you can scroll past them. A blogger’s second, third or last post is as valuable as their first post as they are then bouncing off other bloggers’ views and the discussion broadens. “
That is TOTALLY acceptable and we want that!
“As Erin Strauss said, CMRT can’t force people to participate. I believe CMRT would let us know if we were dominating the blog. See CMRT post dated October 30th at 12:06 pm.”
We would as we did with the few people using the anonymous options to repeat the same thing over and over again.
Erin Strauss said...
ReplyDelete“As for restricting 'air time' - I trust the admins of the site. I'm sure if they felt that this particular thread had run its course or was getting out of hand, they would intervene. But for the most part, the debate has been lively, entertaining, and actually quite fun. You'd know that it you didnt skip over the dominant posts. So, obviously the admins are happy enough to keep this thread open. “
We rarely close down a thread, we believe it close itself down by simply running out of people wanting to discuss the topic. If we do close it own, happened maybe once or twice, it was because things got out of hands.
I cried on the parts about Haley.
ReplyDelete